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Stephen Curran: All right. Welcome to the

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Stephen Curran: July 30 first, and on credit specification working group. couple of things to look at the recent work on C. Our signatures. Drs.

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Stephen Curran: and the Quarterly report that I've put together not a lot of controversy there. I really just did want to take a look at the Pr. On the spec.

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Stephen Curran: So that's the big thing with probably be a short meeting. But it is a Linux Foundation hypervisor meeting. So the anti-trust policy and code of conduct. In effect.

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Stephen Curran: I think we know all everyone here. So I'm just going to jump into the Pr's.

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Stephen Curran: which I realize are not linked in here. So

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Stephen Curran: I use this as a

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Stephen Curran: there's a way to jump over. Oh, Nope.

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Stephen Curran: okay.

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Stephen Curran: and that's not really what I wanted to do so. I'll try it one more time and see how good my clicking can get. No, not going to do it.

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Stephen Curran: Oh, I know why, because I'm not editing, anyway.

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Stephen Curran: Okay.

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Stephen Curran: so the tails file generation is the one that's bugging me the most.

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Stephen Curran: Could you explain it a bit to me?

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Stephen Curran: so you and I talked about this in the sales file generation. So it actually is.

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Stephen Curran: there's 2 values produced per

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Stephen Curran: point per point. Correct?

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Andrew Whitehead: Yeah.

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Stephen Curran: So this isn't described here

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Stephen Curran: directly. So it's saying, it's there's just a point per, and it's generated in sequence. But in fact, 2 numbers are generated, and they're put in the first half, and the second half of the file

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Stephen Curran: correct, and the first about the very first entry is repeated.

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Stephen Curran: The very first entry is repeated. So this is right. There's 2 Byte for the version. Then there's 1, 2 l. Our points associated with credentials, one to Al. Then there's an L plus one. It's a duplicate of the first entry, which is a filler.

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Andrew Whitehead: Yeah, it it could be anything but exactly. We

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Andrew Whitehead: didn't want to just remove it.

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Andrew Whitehead: because we can maintain compatibility.

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Stephen Curran: Yeah. And then there's L plus 2 to 2 l. Plus one.

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Stephen Curran: which are again points associated with credential one to out.

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Andrew Whitehead: Yeah, I I thought it was a little strange, but I I did a test the other day with

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Andrew Whitehead: one entry, and and there were 3 tails

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Andrew Whitehead: points in there

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Stephen Curran: meeting. Sorry. What was that?

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Andrew Whitehead: I generated a tails file with just one.

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Andrew Whitehead: Yeah. resulted in 3 points.

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Stephen Curran: but one thing I notice this is this is

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Stephen Curran: this extra one is just a single point.

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Stephen Curran: not. whereas this is a point, and this is this is a set of points, and this is a set of points. Correct?

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Andrew Whitehead: Yeah, yeah. Okay.

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Andrew Whitehead: so there's 2 n plus one or 2 l plus one.

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Stephen Curran: 2 l, plus one. Right? Okay, yes. Okay, good.

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Stephen Curran: So I'll get back clarified in that we use shot 256. That's explicit.

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Stephen Curran: Yeah. Okay.

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Andrew Whitehead: the size of the points isn't isn't right here. Definitely not 12 Byte.

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Stephen Curran: But is that? Are they? 6 Byte each? That's this is saying, each point is 6 Byte each.

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Andrew Whitehead: No.

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Andrew Whitehead: okay.

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Andrew Whitehead: minimum of 32 Byte.

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Andrew Whitehead: Okay, for for a coordinate 256 bits.

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Andrew Whitehead:  says bytes, size is 128

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Andrew Whitehead: sounds large.

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Stephen Curran: Yeah, that seems large.

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Andrew Whitehead: Oh, no, that is right?

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Andrew Whitehead: Yeah, that is, it outputs them uncompressed.

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Andrew Whitehead:  yeah, there's some talk of

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Andrew Whitehead: Ecp having Ecp 2, having 3 components there, but

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Andrew Whitehead: it's converted to a fine form which only has 2 components.

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Andrew Whitehead: And it could have been output compacted and only have one component. But it's not. It's output.

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Stephen Curran: Okay.

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Andrew Whitehead: compressed

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Stephen Curran: hold on. This seems too large, though.

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Stephen Curran: and each point, or each 2 56 bits is 32 Byte. So

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Stephen Curran: yes. okay, But hold on.

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Stephen Curran: But is that divided into the 2 points? So is a point 2 coordinates.

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Andrew Whitehead: So we're on. We're on G 2. So each

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Andrew Whitehead: coordinate

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Andrew Whitehead: is 2 field elements

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Andrew Whitehead: which is there, which each of those is 32 Byte. So we end up with 4 elements

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Andrew Whitehead: and 128 Byte. Total.

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Stephen Curran: Okay.

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Andrew Whitehead: the the comments do refer to

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Andrew Whitehead: first point that isn't used, and it

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Andrew Whitehead: seems to be generated. So I'm I need to go through and see if it's skipping it somewhere in the output.

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Andrew Whitehead:  okay, is that?

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Andrew Whitehead: Yeah? The generator does. I think it does calculate times

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Andrew Whitehead: camera to the 0, which is just G dash, and which is pretty useful.

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Stephen Curran: So each coordinate is 2 field elements. and there's 2 coordinates

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Stephen Curran: for point, and they're done in, and they're generated separately a coordinate.

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Stephen Curran: and then a coordinate for every credential, and then another coordinate for every credential.

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Stephen Curran: So these up here.

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Stephen Curran: our coordinates.

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Stephen Curran: these are points. These are coordinates up here

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Andrew Whitehead: their their points.

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Stephen Curran: Okay, these are points

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Stephen Curran: 2.2 points, or is a coordinate.

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Stephen Curran: I'm just trying to get the wording right to 2 field elements as a coordinate

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Andrew Whitehead: 2 coordinates as a as a point. So the you have a point which is made of an x and a y in each

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Andrew Whitehead: text, and a y has

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Andrew Whitehead: components named A and B in this code. so we would be able to put x a, xb, y, a y b.

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Stephen Curran: but these are coordinates.

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Stephen Curran: They pass of elements.

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Andrew Whitehead: No, their their points. So each each one of those is for

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Andrew Whitehead: components total.

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Stephen Curran: But these are the these are the first one. So there's 2 points.

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Stephen Curran: Yeah. Credential. Okay, 2 points credential made up of.

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Andrew Whitehead: So 256 Byte per entry.

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Stephen Curran: 256 Byte when you count the first and the second one. Okay.

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Andrew Whitehead: sorry. That's probably more confusing.

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Stephen Curran: 128 Byte.

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Stephen Curran: Okay?

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Stephen Curran: And each element. So elements X and y, which are made up of 2 point a, 2

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Stephen Curran: A and B, okay.

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Andrew Whitehead:  sorry. I think the point is made of of of components. And Sir

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Andrew Whitehead: Point is made of of coordinates. And the coordinate is made up of 2 elements.

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Andrew Whitehead: I think that's the right terminology.

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Andrew Whitehead: 2 field elements.

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Stephen Curran: Okay.

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Stephen Curran: okay.

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Stephen Curran: got it? Right?

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Andrew Whitehead: Yeah. So there, it's output as.

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Andrew Whitehead: x a x b, y, a, y, B,

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Andrew Whitehead: okay.

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Andrew Whitehead: big ending format

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Stephen Curran: looks good.

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Andrew Whitehead: Yeah. So so each one of those field elements is just a an integer

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Andrew Whitehead: modular. The field order

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Andrew Whitehead: sorry. The curve order.

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Andrew Whitehead: which is a big prime number, which is 254 bits. You don't really need to write that there, I don't think once you want to.

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Stephen Curran: Yeah, I'm separating it out, if if anything. But that's okay.

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Stephen Curran: Okay.

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Stephen Curran: Good.

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Stephen Curran: Okay. Thanks. I can tell that wasn't right. So

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Andrew Whitehead: here. But I don't think we need to go into them one by one. I think these ones are

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Stephen Curran: a

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Stephen Curran: I still think we've got phrasing on it. So we

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Stephen Curran: want to get these right?

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Stephen Curran: Okay. as far as the Cl signatures library, are you?

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Stephen Curran:  Completed with it?

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Stephen Curran: I know it's being used in. We we've got a Pr for an on for an on credits. Rs.

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Andrew Whitehead:  yeah. So there's I mean, the 0 one is out there, and it's

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Andrew Whitehead: used in the occupy

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Andrew Whitehead: 0 9 right now.

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Andrew Whitehead: Yeah,

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Andrew Whitehead: And then I had one update to rename

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Andrew Whitehead: Master Secret to link secret but I I realized we were probably being

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Andrew Whitehead: excessively strict

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Andrew Whitehead: by

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Andrew Whitehead: banning all infinity points.

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Stephen Curran: Right? Oh, the conversation we wanted to have with Mike today. Shoot.

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Stephen Curran: That's but I'm I'm fairly certain there, there's

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Andrew Whitehead: revocation registries on the on the ledger that yeah.

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Andrew Whitehead: the infinity point

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Andrew Whitehead: in them.

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Stephen Curran: Yeah, it's probably credentials as well that have

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Andrew Whitehead: witnesses that are an infinity point

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Andrew Whitehead: would manifest as being 0. Yeah, I've seen that before.

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Stephen Curran: I was surprised. I went looking yesterday when this came up, and the first one I looked at I didn't see, but I know I've seen it before.

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Andrew Whitehead: Even some of the test data, like a non-creds. has a a test revocation registry, and it happened to be infinity.

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Stephen Curran: I I know there was one. Well, I know I found it, because when I wrote it I I actually put that into the spec that it's just 0.

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Andrew Whitehead: If you

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Andrew Whitehead:  well, it's it's mostly 0.

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Andrew Whitehead: But because of the way the points are output. The c component might have

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Andrew Whitehead: a big number in it. But it's effectively 0.

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Stephen Curran: Okay. well, we couldn't get this

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Stephen Curran: nail down. But let's let's see who can get. I was actually expecting Mike to be here, hoping you would be, and we got the reverse interestingly.

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Stephen Curran:  and then we've got a Pr for a non credits.

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Stephen Curran: rs, for what?

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Stephen Curran: a key first done, which is replacing

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Stephen Curran: or so with and on credits. I don't know if anyone's had a chance to take a look at this

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Stephen Curran:  but it would be good to to get this one merged as well, so we could have the new

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Stephen Curran: Ari, you, the Afgh folks will need to get

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Stephen Curran: this version in so that you get the fixes for Cl signatures and get rid of versa.

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Stephen Curran: So It would be good. Andrew, if you can go through this one and a and aerial. Maybe you could go through this one to make sure this this If a Keith has done this correctly, it gotten the right pieces in.

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Stephen Curran: Okay, good. Good.

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Ariel Gentile: So that this, this, this, this will not introduce any change on the Api or anything. Right?

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Stephen Curran: He has.

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Stephen Curran: you'd have to take a look. I don't think so. but

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Stephen Curran: he has done the pages and the Javascript.

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Stephen Curran: There's there's a small change to. So you'd have to take a look at that.

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Andrew Whitehead: Yeah. So the method for

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Andrew Whitehead: creating a a credential

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Andrew Whitehead: the revocation info doesn't require a tails file anymore for the issue. Right?

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Not great.

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Andrew Whitehead:  And

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Andrew Whitehead: the method for updating a Revocation registry

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Andrew Whitehead: doesn't require a tails file, but it does require the credit and the Revocation private key.

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Andrew Whitehead: I think those are the only Api changes.

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Andrew Whitehead: So those those changes did go through. Okay, those are both on the issue or

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Andrew Whitehead: side. Nothing

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Andrew Whitehead: different for the verifier or the prover

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Andrew Whitehead: except that the prover well produce a newer version of the non revocation proof that requires a an upgraded verifier.

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Stephen Curran: So

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Stephen Curran: so the net of that is you want to update all your verifiers, because because there's a setting

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Stephen Curran: possible that verifiers can can accept all the new proofs. And then once you update the holders, then they're always submitting new ones.

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Stephen Curran: So there's a sequencing. Unfortunately, in this.

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Andrew Whitehead: And also, the issuers will want to recreate their revocation registries.

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Stephen Curran: Yeah.

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Stephen Curran: well, and on credits. I mean, I believe, area. You're just adding the the

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Stephen Curran: issue or revocation. Now, correct.

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Ariel Gentile: we will like, yes, but we can.

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Stephen Curran: So you definitely before you release that, you definitely want this change, this in there.

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Ariel Gentile: Yeah, yeah, I know. So

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Ariel Gentile: yeah, I think it. It will be quite straightforward to.

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Ariel Gentile: but that because it's just as Andrew said, it's just a few

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Stephen Curran: parameters that change on the issue aside, and so.

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Ariel Gentile: as soon as it is ready, we will.

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we will integrate it.

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Stephen Curran: Okay, good.

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Stephen Curran:  We should add notes to be more explicit about what changes in the interface.

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Stephen Curran: So the tails file is not needed on issuance. No.

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Andrew Whitehead: yeah, that's right. Oh, sorry, and

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Stephen Curran: also not needed on revocation. But revocation. You need the credits

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Andrew Whitehead: and revocation private Key.

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Stephen Curran: Okay?

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Stephen Curran: So I'll add it to the to the Pr to make sure that's understood.

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Andrew Whitehead: because for for some reason, part of the revocation keys and the credits as well.

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Andrew Whitehead: Right? Only there.

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Yeah.

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Stephen Curran: okay.

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Stephen Curran:  And then I've got a draft of the  quarterly report.

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Stephen Curran: that I will link to. Just so people can take a look at it. It talks about the the biggest thing being the release of

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Stephen Curran: the rust implementation and inclusion in the framework. Javascript. release 0 4,

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Stephen Curran: the transition of our socl signatures. and ready with, I said, tails, file generation process is about a 50% improvement you ever take

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Stephen Curran: and other revocation, issuance and and revocation of the 25. I think that's what you said.

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Andrew Whitehead:  I think the

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Andrew Whitehead: I think the 50% was like

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Andrew Whitehead: creation of a new revocation registry with issuance by default on.

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Stephen Curran: Okay.

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Andrew Whitehead: So the tales generation was improved.

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Andrew Whitehead: maybe like 20. But

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he

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Andrew Whitehead: just creating the initial state of the registry was really slow, and that that's gone down from seconds to milliseconds.

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Stephen Curran: Got it?

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Andrew Whitehead: I got a

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Andrew Whitehead: there. There's an issue on Indie, Vdr. To create one of these. I'm not even sure what umbrella would be under.

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Stephen Curran: Yeah, no, I got it. Yeah, I got it.

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Stephen Curran: I'll be doing all of them. There's all 3 are due, and I do. I take a pass out on what I'm trying to do is get it up in the community more.

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Stephen Curran: There isn't too much going on as mentioned on. Once we get the one 0 1 0 and then

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Stephen Curran: the big thing is with the specifications. We've got a reach for doing the mentorship to get the final documentation into the spec, and then the 2 point O spec as formalized

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Stephen Curran: I haven't done this yet I think there's more to do. I haven't checked the staff. So this is just to be added.

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Stephen Curran: the Maintainer is the same. Contributors are probably the same. I think there might be another one in the contributors.

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Stephen Curran: I just got the specs. It looks like they haven't included the sal signatures repository. Yet in these quarterly staff, so

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Stephen Curran: These would be up a little, but that was down. There was a lot less going on, just because the

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Stephen Curran: the work on the 1 point oh, completed early on in that in the quarter. So

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Stephen Curran: lot less going on, everything was going on in a

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Stephen Curran: particularly. So

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Andrew Whitehead: the is the spec included in the stats.

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Stephen Curran: Yeah, yeah.

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Stephen Curran: yeah. It's the Cl signatures one that's not yet.

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Stephen Curran: Hopefully, it'll get at it

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Andrew Whitehead: you've got

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Andrew Whitehead:  the implementation repositories. You've got an oncides. Rs twice.

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Stephen Curran:  Yup.

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Stephen Curran: it just happens to be that the line break.

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Andrew Whitehead: Oh, right

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Stephen Curran: there you go.

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Stephen Curran: These are the insights. And again, it doesn't have it. notably, I can tell, because your name is not here at all, Andrew. So that

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Stephen Curran: told me that the

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Stephen Curran: the see, our signatures is not there. so we'll get that added in.

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Andrew Whitehead: I don't think there's that many commits

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Stephen Curran: fairly important ones, though.

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Stephen Curran: Okay. any other topics anyone want us to raise at this meeting?

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Stephen Curran: All right. If not, There's no meeting next week I'll make sure people know, and then from now on. The all the meetings are at this time the

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Stephen Curran: the meeting that was 100'clock.

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Stephen Curran: specific time previously. So 3 h later every second week. We've moved it to this time.  We did it so Mike could make it. But

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Stephen Curran:  he didn't make it anyway. All good and thanks for attending.

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Andrew Whitehead: I I guess I can mention just for implementers.

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Andrew Whitehead: because in in Dvdr. Is still relying on ours at the moment So once we merge, the didn't did Indie stuff. I can copy over the point validation

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Andrew Whitehead: stuff from a non credit, you know signatures into bls signatures, and then we will use that creates instead of versa.

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Stephen Curran: Okay, good. I didn't think it was used in Indy.

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Andrew Whitehead: I guess it makes sense. It is person.

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Stephen Curran: Yeah.

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Stephen Curran: Well, no. The indie. Oh, sorry the cl signatures, isn't. It's the Dls got it.

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Andrew Whitehead: So it was including our. So with just the Bls feature.

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Stephen Curran: Got it? Yes, yes, okay.

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Stephen Curran: okay, good.

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Stephen Curran: And if you want to use if you want to have a Keith do that, he'd probably be happy.

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Stephen Curran: He's on some other things. So. But anyway, he's available for you to do any rest work that he could possibly get his hands on. He loves that.

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Andrew Whitehead: Yeah.

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Stephen Curran: all right. Okay.

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Stephen Curran: thanks. All. Have a good week.

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Ariel Gentile: Thank you. Bye, bye.