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Keela Shatzkin: Hello! There! Hi!

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trevorbutterworth: I wonder how many people we're going to get today?

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Keela Shatzkin: Oh, are there fun things happening today?

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trevorbutterworth: Summer?

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trevorbutterworth: Well, on the east coast. The first full day of summer is rainy and cold.

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trevorbutterworth: Very good weather for the past 2 2 and a half weeks, which is exceptional.

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Keela Shatzkin: Wow!

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trevorbutterworth: Nobody like this. But I also had the. I also was stuck in meetings till 2 am. Last night. So

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Keela Shatzkin: wow! That's a day.

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Keela Shatzkin:  so

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Keela Shatzkin: in a very. It's a small company. We have somebody who's going on maternity leave, so I will be working it. Can you take your work to the beach at least, or you know, yes, I can do my work as long as I'm on us.

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Keela Shatzkin: Governance. So yes, I could.

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trevorbutterworth: Okay, cause that's that's what I did. you know, I actually, I used to love June, because, you know, we friends had a place in Fire Island and Kismet, and it was. It was like 200 a week.

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trevorbutterworth: and nobody was out there, so I would just go out there for 3 weeks at a 3 or 4 weeks in June.

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trevorbutterworth: and what? 3 weeks in June. And it was great it was!

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trevorbutterworth: It was just my, it was beautiful and tranquil, and so I'm missing that. But hopefully fingers crossed. Next week

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trevorbutterworth: I'll be there for the July weekend. Amazing. And it's like a weekend. Yeah. Well, there's there's got a there's an awful lot of logistics required to be to to actually execute in order for that to happen. in terms of the elder care stuff. So yup!

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trevorbutterworth: Well, I I am rooting for that to happen me, too.

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Keela Shatzkin: All right. We can give people another a minute or 2. I don't know, as you said, how much we're getting here.

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Keela Shatzkin: but we'll see.

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Keela Shatzkin: and if nothing else we can go through the white paper in a very productive small working session.

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Keela Shatzkin: Let me just update. I was working on the notes feverishly messaging.

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trevorbutterworth: I I've got it. Yeah, I've got a feeling like I I the the the the the new system of connecting to the meeting might be

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trevorbutterworth: like I just I I was. I got in through Helen's. you know. I looked at Pellen on the on the calendar and so and then copied from her, just clicked on her meeting. Invite because my one seems to be stuck in.

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Keela Shatzkin: yes, agreed even I had issues getting into the zoom today. I could not agree with you more. It's a little hard to

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Keela Shatzkin: find like, where is the calendar? Even if you just go to Hyper Ledger like the calendar, events is kind of hiding. When you've got to shake this, my card here, meet Simon is struggling. Hold on 1 s.

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trevorbutterworth: Sure you want me to put it. I can put it in the cardio chat. yes, please.

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Keela Shatzkin: and I did it on slack, so if he's there, then

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Keela Shatzkin: he will find us. I know that's not our official tool anymore. But

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trevorbutterworth: yeah, I got a feeling last night knocked out a few people on the in mountain, in, on mountain.

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trevorbutterworth: Oh, there we go! We've got Ken.

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Ken Ebert: Hello! Good morning. Good morning.

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Keela Shatzkin: How are you, sir?

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trevorbutterworth: Oh, no, no, that it actually wasn't yeah, no easier for the yes, it was Japan.

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Keela Shatzkin: Hi, Simon, welcome.

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Simon Nazarenko: Hello!

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Keela Shatzkin: How are you?

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Keela Shatzkin: I'm tired. Yes, I hear. I hear there's a tiredness spreading among the team.

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Keela Shatzkin: Okay?

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Keela Shatzkin: Already. I think we probably have who we're going to have for today. And we have some

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Keela Shatzkin: team editing. We're going to do so. I will. I think I can start recording

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Keela Shatzkin: my loss. It's already recording hard to know.

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Keela Shatzkin: I think we might already be recording so excellent. We can jump in to

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Keela Shatzkin: today's housekeeping. Let me share my screen

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Keela Shatzkin: already. So as we have discussed, we've moved all of our housekeeping things over to the hyper ledger official toolkit. So here we are. these are the meetings for today's meeting. Welcome. June 20, s Cardi, a meeting

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Keela Shatzkin: we have on today's agenda to discuss the cardiac white paper and make appropriate edits and updating to that. Now that we're a part of the Hyper Ledger family and have been working on sort of repositioning cardiac in this space.

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Keela Shatzkin: We also need to just briefly cover the antitrust policy which is Hyper Ledger's antitrust policy. We're not talking about explicit

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Keela Shatzkin: business opportunities here.

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Keela Shatzkin: Speaking more generally, if anybody has concerns, please let Ken or myself know.

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Keela Shatzkin: And additionally, our code of conduct is to encourage participation from all people, all participants, and that this is a safe space for ideas and discussion. If anybody has concerns with that. Again, you can reach out to Ken or myself, or through Hyper Ledger directly.

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Keela Shatzkin: So, as I mentioned today's agenda, we've had a series of really wonderful

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Keela Shatzkin: guest speakers, and we hope to have more come and enlighten us about the work they are doing in this space, and how it may

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Keela Shatzkin: align with the work that we've started here at Korea. But today's session is really to revive that white paper that we wrote At this point I don't know. A year or 2 ago it's been a while my feel like 2 years, but it was a year ago a year. Okay, well, it's ripe for review. And so we're going to dive into that and then outline. our, your sort of coming goals as we enter the summer period.

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And what we want to do with all this wonderful information that we've been gathering.

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Keela Shatzkin: Is there anybody that would like to introduce themselves today? I think we have a small crew and mostly familiar. So if you want to say, Hi. please do otherwise. Well.

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Keela Shatzkin: we can jump into it, I think.

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trevorbutterworth: Okay, let me share my screen.

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trevorbutterworth: So I'm sharing it in acrobat because it's going to look a lot easier

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trevorbutterworth: on the eyes problem with Google docs, is it automatically sizes to

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trevorbutterworth: considerably less than the real size. And then people struggle to read, and then they say the fonts all wrong, and why you make it so small. And it's because Google has rendered it at 56%.

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trevorbutterworth: So we, this is not something that can be edited necessarily. Well, I can. But I wouldn't advise editing directly. I will take notes

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trevorbutterworth: so broadly. The the goal of this is to brand as a hyper ledger. Well, we needed to brand as hyper ledger. but also to re. You know, a lot has happened in the last year. we've And the the text need needed a refresh additional elements needed to be put in. And so here it goes. So one difference to the past white paper is the credits to be moved to the front.

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Keela Shatzkin: Hmm.

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trevorbutterworth:  And we've also credit credit to you. We've tried to do a bit of a better job on crediting so

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Keela Shatzkin: excellent?

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trevorbutterworth: And and does this include

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Keela Shatzkin: in the credits do we need to include? I guess it's more history, though, the life cycle that we've went from Linux Foundation. Yes. Well, Linux Foundation Public Health, for it's encouraging initial support of the cardiac project. And in particular, Jim Sinclair and Jenny Wango. Is there anything do we need to say more than that?

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Ken Ebert: I think that adequately covers the past. And then.

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Ken Ebert: the next paragraph covers the Hyper Ledger Foundation for pulling us into that

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Keela Shatzkin: excellent

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trevorbutterworth: okay, moving on to page 3. So this is an overview.

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trevorbutterworth: It's not. I don't think it's it's not significantly. I mean, there's some tweaks, but it's not significantly changed to the in versus the previous overview. Again it notes the move to Hyper Ledger labs.

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Keela Shatzkin: This calls it machine readable governance rules at the very last paragraph, as where I see that.

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Keela Shatzkin: do we need to update that

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Ken Ebert: do decentralized ecosystem governance?

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Keela Shatzkin: I mean if you're not in this, maybe machine readable governance means something, but

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Keela Shatzkin: we've like branded it now.

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trevorbutterworth: So I I'm I'm not sure I'm remembering correctly some other thing. But

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trevorbutterworth: I you know I I is the the until.

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trevorbutterworth: The specification is formally, I think, adopted by the diff then decentralized ecosystem governance isn't

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trevorbutterworth: is, is in some kind of limbo as a term.

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Keela Shatzkin: Okay? And I think this is a lower case machine readable governance, right? It's like the fact that it's being done by the computer neutrally, potentially. I think that's fine. I just wanted to call it out.

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Ken Ebert: We're about a week away from ratification of this of the first draft of the oh, really, the first version of the machine readable governance. So I think, just need to

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Ken Ebert: take that into consideration. If you want to line up with that or not.

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trevorbutterworth: Maybe we need to. Maybe we leave it in this page, and then I don't know if we talk about machine readable governance anywhere else. We may want to transition

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Keela Shatzkin: and explain that.

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Keela Shatzkin: but that it's now under, you know that it's under the diss and things like that there's there's a lot. So so one of the things there's a there's the section on machine readable governance, slash, d Gove has been updated.

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Keela Shatzkin: So we get to that

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trevorbutterworth: imminently. Anything else on page 3, that

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trevorbutterworth: okay, well, that's just the

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trevorbutterworth: contents.

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trevorbutterworth: mission and background. this is type. The text here has been tightened up over the previous version.

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Keela Shatzkin: I think it looks okay. Can we pause for a second and just also establish the goals for reviewing this?

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Keela Shatzkin: We want to sort of

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Keela Shatzkin: shift to Hyper Ledger

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Keela Shatzkin: because it may be received by an audience now for the first time as a larger audience, and

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Keela Shatzkin: get some excitement going. Those are the 2 goals.

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trevorbutterworth: Well, also bring it, you know.

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trevorbutterworth: bring it a good, you know. Renovate in light of the previous year. and with fresh eyes on design and communication. So new graphics, etc., etc., which build on changes that have taken place over the years. So that it's it's a fresh code of paint.

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trevorbutterworth: with some additional, with with an additional extension couple of extensions

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Ken Ebert: in the the second to last paragraph on that side. it talks about to adapt and function for sharing and verifying multiple kinds of health data, I think, put in certain there, including consent.

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trevorbutterworth: Okay?

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Ken Ebert: Otherwise people might assume that it's just clinical data.

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Ken Ebert: Kila, what's your thought as a medical professional? What do you think?

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Keela Shatzkin: I think that's fine? I think that makes sense.

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Keela Shatzkin: and I don't know if we want to

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Keela Shatzkin: add more than that, because we haven't delved into those use cases extensively yet. But I do think the consent conundrum is a well known

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Keela Shatzkin: problem.

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Ken Ebert: Well, yeah.

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trevorbutterworth: And I mean, I I suspect when we have a

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trevorbutterworth: worked out how to deal with consent. We will need to do a version, 3 of this within a, with additional sec with a section on that.

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trevorbutterworth: But I suspect

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trevorbutterworth: we don't have a huge amount to say about how that is technically soluble at this point.

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trevorbutterworth: Well, I can't. Well, you that's that. That was a question more so than a statement.

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Keela Shatzkin: I think, adding, the mention is fine, but you're right. That more elaboration will be needed when we fully flush out a consent, use like a

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Keela Shatzkin: consent, capture and release use case.

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trevorbutterworth: So this has been expanded a little bit.

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Ken Ebert: That's good to me.

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Keela Shatzkin: Yep, agreed.

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trevorbutterworth: I'm sorry I'm taking a couple of minor notes.

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trevorbutterworth: no.

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trevorbutterworth: So this is new.

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trevorbutterworth:  again, it's it. It's it sort of illuminates section that we had. So this is an addition.

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Keela Shatzkin: And the message this is delivering

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Ken Ebert: the thing is that for medical

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Ken Ebert: most of the data will be personal data regardless of its source. So this one is less.

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Ken Ebert:  there are. There are some organizational credentials that are indicated.

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Ken Ebert: but the the type of data that we're dealing with generally pushes towards making the personal data really large. And the the other data really small.

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trevorbutterworth: So access, graphic.

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Keela Shatzkin: Well, I'm still confused about exactly what the messages that is trying to convey. Is it saying that a verifiable data could be in any one of those little dots?

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Ken Ebert: Yeah. Verifiable data point? Yes.

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Ken Ebert: And and the the left half of the

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Ken Ebert: of the diagram up to people organizations, machine sensors, connected data makes much more sense and

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trevorbutterworth: for Cardi than the right half of the data.

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Ken Ebert: Yes, the the the part at the bottom, the interoperable preserving, and all that that makes sense to.

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Ken Ebert: And you could just get rid of the bubbles at the top side and move the interoperable and other stuff as attributes of the data

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Ken Ebert: or descriptions of our qualities of the data.

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Keela Shatzkin: And one ledger right equals, I'm not sure.

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Ken Ebert: unlimited digital identities holding the data off chain and verifiable credentials. So you contrast how much has to go on? The ledger in some ledger systems. All the data goes on the ledger.

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Ken Ebert: and in Cardi the keys go on the ledger, and all the data goes to to the off chain wallet.

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Keela Shatzkin: But that isn't clear.

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Ken Ebert: Okay, for those of us. Looking at the site for this first time, I would say, I missed that. Memo.

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Ken Ebert: okay, that that's a real good feedback. Because that that helps. I think you need. We need to show the dots off the ledger. If that's the point right. Put the personal Phi dots on this page.

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Ken Ebert: put the ledger on the

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Ken Ebert: on the left underneath the one ledger right, and then say all the rest of the data is off. Ledger put one dot on the going to the ledger, and all the rest going into the wallet. Is that that kind of captures. What? Yeah, exactly. We're trying to say that there's you do less on the ledger when we're talking about this, because it's decentralized, and it's held by the holder. But all these dots are sitting here on the ledger. I mean, it's just so. The

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Ken Ebert: I don't get the point of the one ledger right equals all these dots.

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Keela Shatzkin: Right? It's pretty. I like the idea of the slide, but it didn't deliver the intended message.

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Keela Shatzkin: Sorry. That's okay. That's what we're here for?

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Ken Ebert: Yeah.

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trevorbutterworth: So this is

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trevorbutterworth: again, slightly changed, mostly the same, but

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trevorbutterworth: more tightly edited.

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Keela Shatzkin: Oh, this is fun history. I'm learning new stuff.

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trevorbutterworth: So you do we? Are you telling me you didn't read the first one? I don't think Arpanet was in the first one.

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Keela Shatzkin: Do. Is there any value in that second column. It's talking about email as a central identity. Is there any value in mentioning

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Keela Shatzkin: the security there as well? That, like that email provider in theory has access to all of their stuff

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Keela Shatzkin: because it's centralized

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Keela Shatzkin: and housed by the that third party.

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trevorbutterworth: I let others adjudicate on that.

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Ken Ebert: yeah. The fact that it is stored in a database by the provider makes it subject to

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Ken Ebert:  tax. And

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Ken Ebert: it provides the access to the email provider to

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Ken Ebert: observe all your data and also makes a target for heckers.

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trevorbutterworth: Okay. how about?

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Ken Ebert: Well, you in the second paragraph already make the database and attractive target for prime. But key. This other point is that the data is also available to email providers. A unique statement.

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Keela Shatzkin: right?

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Keela Shatzkin: Do we define federated identity.

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Keela Shatzkin: an authenticated login to to a user profile on one platform enables, do we need to do any more explanation of that? Or do we think our readers will connect those dots?

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trevorbutterworth: Should I just say, I, I mean, should I say, such as Google or Facebook.

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Ken Ebert: yeah, Google email using your Google email to log into a different thing to something totally unrelated. I don't know how to phrase that better. But using your Google email to log into other services.

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Keela Shatzkin: Yeah.

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Keela Shatzkin: just so that there's no room for gaps and interpretation there.

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trevorbutterworth: Okay, moving on

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trevorbutterworth: move on.

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Keela Shatzkin:  I think we in the first

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Keela Shatzkin: column of comments, I think we need to

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Keela Shatzkin: be clear

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Keela Shatzkin: the cause we still have an if there's still an issuing right, there's an issue, or of the credential, why is that different than the Federated one? And I think.

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Keela Shatzkin: adding a sentence or 2 to highlight, that it's like issued, and now in the ownership of the

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Keela Shatzkin: holder.

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Keela Shatzkin: to then reuse in a in a disconnected way except to verify that trust. I don't know that that's

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Keela Shatzkin: explicitly clear.

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Keela Shatzkin: This is kind of good to do. But with a after a long time fresh set of eyes.

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Keela Shatzkin: Maybe it gets into it. In the second thing, I wasn't there yet.

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Keela Shatzkin: Second column.

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Ken Ebert: I think, in the second paragraph of we said. any governing authority and issue a digital credential. some

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Ken Ebert: to the to the holder, or something like that to to something like that, just to the holder.

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makes it clear that the data went to them.

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trevorbutterworth: Okay.

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Keela Shatzkin: yeah, because it does get into it a little bit more in the second column. But I think that transfer of

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Keela Shatzkin: the hand off, isn't it? Wasn't clear to me in that section over there.

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Ken Ebert: It's reiterated in that. We know. We can know that it was issued to the traveler in the top. Right? Paragraph.

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Ken Ebert: That kind of goes over it again. But I think I hint of it in the second paragraph. Yep. okay.

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Keela Shatzkin: thanks. Tremor.

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Ken Ebert: W. 3 C. Did come. Don't go in the same parentheses

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Ken Ebert: like the W. Threec. Out of there.

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trevorbutterworth: Yeah, I'm not sure why that was there.

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Ken Ebert: The Didcom is fine.

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Ken Ebert: I'm good with this page.

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trevorbutterworth: Okay.

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Ken Ebert: I like this page.

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Keela Shatzkin: sorry. What's the digital twins?

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Ken Ebert:  smart cities and robots. Those are the digital twins.

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trevorbutterworth: digital digital twins are are sort of a replication of infrastructure in digital form.

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Ken Ebert: So if you have something that's not very intelligent, it doesn't have any any capabilities. It's an in out of an object. You can create a digital twin to represent it in the digital world.

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Ken Ebert: So if you have

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Ken Ebert: a box of goods, it can be ha! Have a digital identity assigned to it. And it's location or movement, or even though it's not capable of itself, interacting digitally

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Keela Shatzkin: got it

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trevorbutterworth: very big and industrial uses at this all. It's a growth area and industrial uses.

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trevorbutterworth: products, lines and things like that.

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Keela Shatzkin: I think we have a more missing a word. Sorry I jumped ahead a little bit after agents, because they manage information flow between parties. Have a fiduciary, I think it's and have.

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Keela Shatzkin: or that have

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Keela Shatzkin: parties and have is missing award in the middle.

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Keela Shatzkin: There in the agents. Paragraph.

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trevorbutterworth: yes, and have

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trevorbutterworth: okay. I'm moving anything else on this page.

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Ken Ebert: Mobile agents enable connections with mobile devices.

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trevorbutterworth: Mediate. That should be mediator agents, shouldn't it?

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Ken Ebert: yes.

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Ken Ebert: yeah, yeah.

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trevorbutterworth: Got you.

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Ken Ebert: I'm good with it

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Keela Shatzkin: not a triangle anymore?

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Keela Shatzkin: Oh, okay.

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do we need to put the labels? We defined the participants in this? Do we need to use that language?

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Keela Shatzkin: Who's the issuer, the holder.

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Keela Shatzkin: the verifier?

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Keela Shatzkin: Those labels aren't here.

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trevorbutterworth: Okay.

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Ken Ebert: they're partly there. So you have issue or agent and a verifier agent. You just don't have

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Ken Ebert:  When you where you say at the top cloud or mobile holder agent that would kind of

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trevorbutterworth: I can put I I can we?

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trevorbutterworth: I can rework that to make that more explicit.

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Ken Ebert: I think it's it's If you had the holder agent in the Cloud or mobile holder agent, then I think you'd have all 3.

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Keela Shatzkin: Well, I was going to put holder under patient issuer under public health authority, and then verifiers over here. Yeah, that would make it. I think you can leave the agents, because I think that's the helpful, too. But

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Keela Shatzkin: having that clear would would also be good.

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Keela Shatzkin: So this is the one that's going to need some re-editing it in a week or 2

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trevorbutterworth: as the second. This is those 2 pages here on the governance.

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Keela Shatzkin: Should we change

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Keela Shatzkin: in the pair. Fourth paragraph, the benefit of machinery, local evidence, instead of as the science should, we changes the requirements or regulations change just to make it a little bit more neutral.

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Ken Ebert: So one of them is the to indicate that, as the data from the research says.

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Ken Ebert: it needs to be 24 h versus 48 h. That that's that part of it. The regulations are the ones that say you have to have a test or

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Ken Ebert: vaccination, or whatever. And so the 2 kind of play in tandem. So how do you express that

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Ken Ebert: that part of the the sciencey part of it

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Ken Ebert: in another way? If you wanted to use another way.

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trevorbutterworth: I I was a scientific evidence for requirements.

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Ken Ebert: Yeah, that would do, too.

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trevorbutterworth: Okay.

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trevorbutterworth: now the may. Yes. So there,

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trevorbutterworth: right. So I see see a problem. So I think we have to introduce the concept of decentralized ecosystem governance

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trevorbutterworth: more explicitly in the final paragraph

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trevorbutterworth: to make for this to for this next to make sense

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Ken Ebert: agreed.

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Keela Shatzkin: And maybe it's just, you know, as this concept has become more adopted, it's been rebranded. I I still think there's some value in referencing it as machine readable governance, and so getting rid of that entirely. I don't know that we need to do that. But we should probably explain it and then introduce its other name in this universe.

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Keela Shatzkin: Number one. Should that be encoded publishes in code. That's that's yeah. I see the problem there.

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trevorbutterworth: I think just publishes.

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Keela Shatzkin: Okay.

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Ken Ebert: yes, that's

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Ken Ebert: sounds good to me.

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trevorbutterworth: Move on.

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Ken Ebert: Yeah.

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Keela Shatzkin: Find that second paragraph a little stumbling.

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trevorbutterworth: The second one.

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Keela Shatzkin: It seems it's like a little circular. Perhaps it could be simplified

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Keela Shatzkin: like is a URL or web address. Maybe if that goes in parentheses.

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Keela Shatzkin: I'm not. I think it's trying to say that

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Keela Shatzkin: for something with an IP address. basically, it's gonna have a unique. Each one will have a unique did.

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Ken Ebert: No, I think it's a comparing contrast. Kind of thing. It's the if a device has an IP address

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Ken Ebert: and the digital identity begins with, they did.

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Keela Shatzkin: Okay.

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Keela Shatzkin: okay, I'll rework that if there's yeah, it just needs a little word smithing to simplify. It's

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Ken Ebert: approved by the world. Wide Web is actually recommended.

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trevorbutterworth: Okay.

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Ken Ebert: is there official language

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Ken Ebert: kind of a nuance, but it will make the world people happier.

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems): I think there's like 4 synonyms there. And in that same paragraph to your point that you have.

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems): You could just. you know, website and web address

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems): is a little bit extra redundant. But you could just say, IP address comma URL comma or web address. Those are

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems): synonyms.

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Keela Shatzkin: you know. The web addresses the zoom room for a URL, is it not? I think it? It's an IP address as a of a different layer.

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Ken Ebert: But if you just said IP address and a or a URL,

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Ken Ebert: you can

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Ken Ebert: simplify the complexity a little bit.

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Keela Shatzkin: Yeah, maybe also not. If because it's missing the like second part of the if that thing, then the next thing I've missed the then the next thing part I don't know. There's something about that paragraph I've moved on.

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trevorbutterworth: have you? Are we still on this page?

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trevorbutterworth: Yeah, I guess we are.

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Ken Ebert:  The mobile agents instead of can or create unique third from the bottom on the right, it should say, can create. They don't have to. They

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Ken Ebert: they probably should, but

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Ken Ebert: they're not obligated to

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trevorbutterworth: Gotcha.

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Ken Ebert: Nice, nice writing, though.

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trevorbutterworth: So I borrowed this from

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trevorbutterworth: other documents we've created.

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Ken Ebert: Yeah, this one's okay to me.

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Keela Shatzkin: Great.

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems): that last slide. I, maybe this is just a nit pick, but

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems):  like you have Apis or insecure the third bullet point on the left side.

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trevorbutterworth: Oh, yeah, well, sorry, I interrupted. You say that again.

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems): I was just gonna say I wouldn't. I wouldn't make that claim, because I think just blank it. Saying Apis or insecure is not accurate.

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems): in my opinion.

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems): so I don't know if you just delete that whole bullet point. Or

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Simon Nazarenko: yeah, I agree. was to.

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trevorbutterworth: So we going with it can be insecure.

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Ken Ebert: You have to do something to secure them

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Ken Ebert: in their raw state. They are not secured by default. They you have to do work to make them be secure.

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Keela Shatzkin: figuring out how to, and I think there could be a little like maybe aligning some of the language across the 2

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Keela Shatzkin: like the the bad things and the good things, so that they're more directly like checked off

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems): set the next bullet point. After that, also you might want to change it to say could can be insecure, or

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems): maybe, or something.

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Ken Ebert: So Sam was pretty adamant that the the

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Ken Ebert: if you're gonna have an Api to a mobile device, it is fairly, inherently insecure. There's not a lot you can do to fix it.

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems): Okay.

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Ken Ebert: the the fact that servers do interesting things to secure their Apis. and is kind of a well known process to to address the security concerns. But you it's hard to do that on the Mobile the other way around.

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Ken Ebert: So if I want to talk to you, if I want to contact your mobile device. there's not a good Api based way to do it. Security.

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Keela Shatzkin: Okay.

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okay.

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Keela Shatzkin: I don't have any comments on this one.

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Ken Ebert: me, neither.

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Ken Ebert: My big gripe on this slide is that there are 2 periods after pars on the fourth point.

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Ken Ebert: Oh, good, nice catch

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Ken Ebert: I've I've I've I've I've seen a whole bunch of little things that I've taken notes on, but that was good good and miss that.

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Keela Shatzkin: I wonder also, in those heavy text slides that we did at the beginning. Do we want to make any mention about like see cryptographic signatures and privacy section.

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trevorbutterworth: Maybe. Yes.

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Keela Shatzkin: stringing things together throughout the document, but it may be helpful, because if it, they, people are getting lost in the words like this picture goes a long way.

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trevorbutterworth:  yeah, yeah, yeah.

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trevorbutterworth: okay.

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trevorbutterworth: there might be a better way to lay this out, so the schema is more, clear. I think there is.

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Keela Shatzkin: Yeah, and maybe we get to it. But I haven't seen it yet. Is the schema

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Keela Shatzkin: relationship to the ecosystem

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Ken Ebert: the in must be revocable. Is not? That is not true? They don't have to be revocable

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Ken Ebert: down in the fourth paragraph.

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trevorbutterworth: Okay?

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trevorbutterworth: So I'm gonna read, I'm going to redo this slide to, because that's this is not doesn't really work.

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trevorbutterworth: This is version 2 of an attempt to make it work. But

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trevorbutterworth: move on.

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Ken Ebert: Yeah.

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trevorbutterworth: So this is all. This is all being redone

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trevorbutterworth: or created a new.

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Ken Ebert: some in the point. One part of it. I think we need to emphasize that paragraph 2 and 3 are done once

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Ken Ebert: and not done right now, it sounds like that happens each time a patient comes through the process.

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Ken Ebert: Okay, yeah, I would put the second and third paragraphs as item 0.

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Ken Ebert: And let's say that this happens at the very beginning and and set up in configuration, and then steps one which is the follow. It's Kyc process. And to it issues the thing. And 3 are the normal things that happen.

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Keela Shatzkin: Do we want to sorry.

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trevorbutterworth: So these are all basically one

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Ken Ebert: as opposed to 1, 2, 3. The second paragraph that writes the public, did it add a credential schema, those 2 paragraphs.

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trevorbutterworth: Okay, those are step 0, and they only happen one time at configure

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Ken Ebert: or set up. And that items a public health authority the issue or sends and scanning the QR code. Those 3 items go 1, 2, 3, every time a new patient shows up or does something

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Keela Shatzkin: a number 2, though, do we.

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Keela Shatzkin: It's very specific. They send an email.

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Keela Shatzkin: It doesn't have to be email. It also doesn't have to be sent to them individually. It can also be a generic QR code right where they can like register.

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Ken Ebert: how about the issue, or connects with the patient

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Ken Ebert: to

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Ken Ebert: issue the the credential

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Keela Shatzkin: or the issuer provides

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Keela Shatzkin: a QR code for establishing the initial connection.

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Ken Ebert: It doesn't have to be a QR code.

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Keela Shatzkin: There could be a link.

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Ken Ebert: And then it's following the

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Ken Ebert: QR code or invitation. URL will create a direct link encrypted link.

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Keela Shatzkin: Yeah, because it's not. We're not yet at the credential part. We're at establishing a connection. I think.

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Ken Ebert: Yeah.

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Keela Shatzkin: I also think there's

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Keela Shatzkin: it's very vague on the verifying. The person using the app is the same one

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Keela Shatzkin: that's there's like a lot there.

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trevorbutterworth: So I'm not. I'm not sure I follow what you what you're saying.

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Keela Shatzkin:  well, there may be I an identity step in there where they're asking them to prove their identity they may have. If if the implementation pipeline is that or connection, pipeline is that

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Keela Shatzkin: I human vetted you, and so I know you are. I'm only offering this link, or, you know, onboarding method.

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Ken Ebert: I've got it. The person

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Keela Shatzkin: okay.

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Ken Ebert: So I'm only gonna give you the credential because I've already vetted you

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Keela Shatzkin: 3 doesn't happen, or 2 and 3 don't happen, and plus one is.

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Ken Ebert: So, how does the issuer server verify? The person using the app is the same one that registered as a patient.

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Keela Shatzkin: Okay? So then that goes away. And number 3, s sentence.

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Keela Shatzkin: okay. there's an assumption of

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Keela Shatzkin: based on step one. That being done.

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trevorbutterworth: Sorry I I I'm not sure what has to happen to 3 number. The second sentence goes away

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Ken Ebert: after connecting the issue, or server verifies that that something disappears.

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Keela Shatzkin: and we are at time

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trevorbutterworth: we were having so much fun. I lost track of that.

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trevorbutterworth: It looks like we're just about two-thirds of the way through. So, but we will need to discuss, because,

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trevorbutterworth: yeah, there's some substantial things. Let me just quickly. This, the next session.

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Keela Shatzkin: We certainly can.

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trevorbutterworth: Yeah, other rather than having you just try to blit through it. You have a link for this. I can put it in our notes and encourage people to go review the the second.

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Keela Shatzkin: Let me let me update Let me update it before sending it out.

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Keela Shatzkin: All the changes that so they changes can be reviewed as well.

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Keela Shatzkin: Thanks a lot.

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems): all right. It's good.

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trevorbutterworth: Thanks, everybody. We'll see you in 2 weeks.

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Keela Shatzkin: in which will be in July. How exciting

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Keela Shatzkin: a fabulous day.

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Steve Davis (Shatzkin Systems): Hi.

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Simon Nazarenko: thank you. Bye.