Sam Curren (TelegramSam): All right. Welcome everyone to the
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): the seventh of June 2023 are's working group call. This is a hyper ledger call, and so the antitrust policy in the code of conduct are in effect
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): the link to the agenda
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): is paste repeatedly in the chat. if you'd like to view it or make any changes. I I promise I will not do this forever. But but
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Sam Curren (TelegramSam): So grateful
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): that that you all are here. Anyone would like to. Is there anyone here that would like to introduce themselves?
Janelle Krupicka: Okay, yes, I'm I'm new. my name is Janelle, and I'm an intern at Matrix Group International. We're in Northern Virginia and one of my projects this summer is going to be exploring SSI and verifiable credentials. So I'm just here to learn more.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Janelle. Welcome!
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Glad you're here. I am.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Anybody else.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): If someone wouldn't mind adding on Andre via his request in the chat. That would be great.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): perfect So, Janelle, you're dropping into the middle of a of a semi large conversation today. So there's a bunch of contexts. But the previous several meetings do have call recordings available. that we won't cover all of the context. But but if you end up confused today, then hit those recordings. Anyone else, of course, is welcome to do so.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): and our our calls are. The recordings are regularly posted for folks to follow along so so very much appreciate that
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): announcements
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): we've got a dice. Europe is happening like now is in Europe today in the next couple days. and and then as well. The other thing that's going on, I think I currently right now is the diffs. Did hack Xyz Hackathon as well is going on kind of right now as we speak.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Stephen, I'll ask you later to give us a quick recap of the non-res workshop because that fell off of the announcement, since it actually happened. But but before we get to that, any other announcements or work status updates that we want to share today.
Warren Gallagher: Sam, I attended the
Warren Gallagher: by fold and Afj meetings recently, and Fj released 0 or 0
Warren Gallagher: 4 days ago. Which has all of the shared components work in it
Warren Gallagher: So congratulations to that team. They've been pushing pretty hard on that
Warren Gallagher: and by fold, ran some tests of their code base against that, and found
Warren Gallagher: one issue, I believe, and so we'll be looking for
Warren Gallagher: a fixed to that, and then they plan on issuing an update pretty soon against that. I understand.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Thank you, Warren, for highlighting that this, this move there, this release for the Fga community is huge as well as for all of us, because of the work that they've been doing with with integrating shared components. So this is a big deal, Warren. Thank you for for highlighting that.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): All right.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): So we have on our agenda today. the main the topic will be an ow, owf presentation. I see Tracy here.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): and which is fantastic. Thank you. Trace for coming and then but and then some open discussion. But before we get there. I wanted to to see it, Steven, if you'd be willing to give us a quick update on the a non-cred workshop done this last week.
Stephen Curran: Sure. we have
Stephen Curran: a workshop, hyper, Ledger hosted. Excuse me. On
Stephen Curran: last Wednesday, a week ago. Today. lots of participants. We had something on the order of 400 people expressed interest.
Stephen Curran: we had 200 people show up
Stephen Curran: at some, or, you know, during the the webinar, and then at even at the end we had 70 people hanging in 3 and a half hours into it, so which was great. We went through a lot of the features of an oncides. we used a tool
Stephen Curran: traction that allowed for a really simple way to experiment with an ongrad and experiment with with effectively areas, tools as well.
Stephen Curran: And one of the the follow up is, I think we're gonna try to spin up an instance of that that the community can use at any time to to do experiments and have their own, you know, their own agent to experiment with an on cred, but lots of new interest in in using
Stephen Curran: using it on press. one of the sections talked about and on threads in W. Threec. Format.
Stephen Curran: and part of that was a a demonstration that Patrick, saying that we put in from id lab that showed and on credentials. issued.
Stephen Curran: requested, presented and verified, all using w 3 C. Format, using the chappy
Stephen Curran: browser interface and a various one wallet for holding for holding the credential and and presenting it, which was quite something, something that hadn't been seen before, and, in fact.
Stephen Curran: The credential had both an a nonprofit signature and a NIST signature on it, which meant that it could be verified by either. a a verifier using it on cred with all of the privacy, preserving features of that.
Stephen Curran: and with a
Stephen Curran: a a verifier using peering nest signatures and losing the the privacy, preserving features, but still able to
Stephen Curran: present the credential and have it verified. So that was a pretty neat work. R. Rudolfo. Miranda also, demonstrated using Cardano with an on credit. So so, basing the work on on Curvano blockchain, which was really cool, so fantastic work by those 2 in in presenting the material for the for the course
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Steven, and thank you for the report. I have a question which which format was of the credential was was, in fact, presented by the various one wallet and not for it's verifiable present presentation. They presented a non credit out of various one. Yeah.
Stephen Curran: that's awesome. This is all Patrick's work. It really impressive. What? He did? so yeah, for me.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): very, very cool. thank you for that.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Are there any other change, changes or adjustments we want to make to our agenda before we get going here today on the main topics.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): excellent! At this point. Tracy, am I handing this over to you?
Tracy Kuhrt: Sure you can have this over to me?
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Let me stop sharing, and I will.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): You have the floor?
Tracy Kuhrt: All right. So let me start by saying for those of you who don't, only that I am playing dual roles here. so I am the Hyper Ledger Foundation Technical Oversight Committee chair
Tracy Kuhrt: and have been involved in the Hyper Ledger community since 20
Tracy Kuhrt: 20
Tracy Kuhrt: 16. I think it's been So Shortly after it formed
Tracy Kuhrt: and I also am playing the role of the
Tracy Kuhrt: chair of the Technical Advisory council for the Open Wallet foundation. So let's just say that playing these dual roles is somewhat of a challenge to to be impartial one way or the other. but I'll do my best to to do that. I I do want to provide you guys with
Tracy Kuhrt: all of the information about where we are with the open wallet foundation So that you guys can make a decisions based on facts. and really, you know any sort of questions that you have. I ask that you please stop me as we're going through.
Tracy Kuhrt: Don't let me just talk at you, because that will never be a good sort of interaction that we have. So please, please please stop me. Ask questions I will try and keep an eye on the the hand raises, and and the chat as best I can. But if if something shows up and I'm not catching it, please just interrupt me. Happy to have you guys do that.
Tracy Kuhrt: So this presentation here is a presentation that is on the open wallet foundation website. I'm just gonna use it as a reference point more than anything rather than trying to to go through it. Because I think there's stuff in here that we can take deeper into based on kind of some of the discussions that have happened
Tracy Kuhrt: and where we're at right now. So just just to start with. Obviously, it's open Wallet Foundation is a sister project to the Hyper Ledger Foundation.
Tracy Kuhrt: It is intended to be a neutral home for open source projects. It is not intended to be a place for standards. but rather the implementation of standards that are focused on the development of interoperable digital wallets. so just to to level set kind of what this group is all about and what it's looking to do.
Tracy Kuhrt: So obviously, you all know that today we have a variety of different sorts of assets.
Tracy Kuhrt: I also work for eccentric center. We like to talk about identity money and objects as being pieces of
Tracy Kuhrt: you know different sorts of credentials that could be stored into a wallet, and the idea behind the open wallet foundation is to be larger than just decentralized identity, and to focus on a number of different sorts of assets that we would have contained inside of our wallets. Now, obviously, identity is a large part of that.
Tracy Kuhrt: And yeah, I probably should have said at some point I
Tracy Kuhrt: When I was introducing myself.
Tracy Kuhrt: I'm super super proud of all of the work that the decentralized identity community has done within in the Hyper Ledger Foundation. Specifically, I think this is a great community, and I think a very welcoming community. So you know, just just a level set that, you know. I think the work that you guys are doing here is something that is of extreme importance. And
Tracy Kuhrt: you know. Obviously, it will be important as we look at wallets. one of the things about the open foundation is, it is based out of the EU And so there is a lot of discussions about
Tracy Kuhrt: really, the the Eidis and the Edi architecture, reference framework that is put out And so you know, just to to level set and kind of where they're coming from. as far as you know, what what we're looking to do with interoperable wallets.
Tracy Kuhrt: I think there's a lot of words on here. But obviously we want these digital wallets to be flexible, and we want them to be modular in the way that they are, because what we're trying to do is build the open source code that others can use to build their wallets on top of And so basically being able to
Tracy Kuhrt: have a modular components that can fit together in any way, shape or form, that people who are developing what it's for use can use and be interoperable across those different wallet platforms that people might create and develop.
Tracy Kuhrt: you've probably seen this picture? obviously, what's in the middle. There is not fully baked in any way, shape or form. Again, just focusing on the fact that we do have. I did any money in objects that we would be storing in our wallets, and that those things should be able to be accessible through many different means. be them the web, mobile desktop headsets or hardware based.
Tracy Kuhrt: so so that's really what we have here. so here's the the picture that I think is an important one about where it is that we're focused with the open wallet foundation. It's really on that engine.
Tracy Kuhrt: so building that open source, open wallet foundation engine that people can then build their proprietary wallets on top of And then, obviously, you know how it would work to become a committer.
Tracy Kuhrt: You know, this is something that's here. But obviously we do not specify or define what those requirements are that's really up to the maintainers of each project, so very similar to the way that the Hyper Ledger Foundation is working. We are not forcing any sort of governance on our projects. we really intend for the projects to govern themselves and to decide what it would mean to become a committer or a maintainer of a project.
Tracy Kuhrt: so you could see there's obviously many standards development organizations that exist. they're developing many standards. We would want to be implementing these different sorts of standards in the open wallet foundation
Tracy Kuhrt: within the engine, so that people can again build their wallets on top of
Tracy Kuhrt: yeah, I mean, similar to Hyper Ledger. We're going to be a consortium of companies right now. We have 4 premier members. I think there is something in the range of 20
Tracy Kuhrt: general members. And then we have a number of associate members that exist within the the project within the foundation right now. and so I think we've talked about what that is. Obviously, you guys know what open source is. We don't have to focus on that. I think the general piece here is the focus on interoperability which is important for us.
Tracy Kuhrt: we do want any sort of wallets that are developed, to be able to communicate with one another, exchange different sorts of credentials. and and be able to really, think about this from, you know, really, the legal perspective all the way down to the protocol perspective. And what that will look like. So that's kind of the focus
Tracy Kuhrt: these
Tracy Kuhrt: proposed an initial building box for things that we were looking at before the foundation started.
Tracy Kuhrt: whether or not these are the things that people decide to bring into the Open Wallet foundation is
Tracy Kuhrt: completely up to people who decide that you know the foundation is the right spot for them to come in and and contribute code.
Tracy Kuhrt: currently, we've had 2 lab proposals have that have been approved by the open wallet foundation that is specifically focused on sd jots, one for cotling, one for python And so that's where we're at right now, as far as projects go.
Tracy Kuhrt: I think this page is something that we've talked about in a few meetings, but I think it's worth spending some time on just to contrast to the Hyper Ledger Foundation, and what that looks like. So obviously, this piece at the top is one change. So, as I mentioned, we're part of the Linux Foundation, Europe, whereas Hyper Ledger Foundation is part of the Linux Foundation.
Tracy Kuhrt: so this would it would be where a Hyper Ledger Foundation falls as a sister project to the Open Wallet Foundation. The we do have a governing board that's made up of Premier members
Tracy Kuhrt: as well as a member from the general members a elected member similar to what we have with the the Hyper Ledger Foundation. I do also sit on the governing board as the Tac chair similar to how I sit on the Hyper ledger governing board as the Poc chair.
Tracy Kuhrt: And so that's kind of the governing board make up.
Tracy Kuhrt: We do have a new to the
Tracy Kuhrt: Open World Foundation versus what it exist in the Hyper Ledger Foundation is, there is a Government Advisory Council. So these are people who are made up of the different national governments who are going to be helping to advise the Open Wallet foundation, a different sorts of regulation that is related to wallets and how they're they're being used or how they're being regulated.
Tracy Kuhrt: so so being able to bring that kind of
Tracy Kuhrt: set of knowledge in across the different nations. And the way that they're they're thinking about regulating wallets is is an important aspect. And so that is one major difference between the Open Wallet Foundation and the Hyper Ledger Foundation.
Tracy Kuhrt: The the second minor difference, I would say, is the Technical Advisory Council versus the Technical Oversight Committee.
Tracy Kuhrt: I have to get my my keys and my C's correct, and what's in the middle there. But The the major difference at this point is that in the Hyper Ledger Foundation
Tracy Kuhrt: the people who are on the Technical Oversight Committee are elected as people who are maintainers of the different projects. and so they're elected by those maintainers.
Tracy Kuhrt: a. And so I think that's a a major difference right now.
Tracy Kuhrt: and that the Technical Advisory Council in the Open Wallet Foundation is made up of premier members and 2 at large
Tracy Kuhrt: community members
Tracy Kuhrt: that may change in the future. Once we actually end up with projects. But I think to start with
Tracy Kuhrt: similar to the way that the Hyper Ledger Foundation started with the number of premier members. you know it may very well switch from what it is.
Tracy Kuhrt: A lot of the governing documents that we created in the Technical Advisory Council
Tracy Kuhrt: for the Open Wallet Foundation is based on what we solve with the Technical Oversight Committee within the Hyper Ledger Foundation. So they're almost directly copied from there. There are a few differences, and we can look at those specific differences because I think those might be of interest to this group. just so that you guys can see.
Tracy Kuhrt: The major differences I'm thinking about are just improvements around reviewing projects annually. which is something that we're currently talking about in the Hyper Ledger Foundation.
Tracy Kuhrt: to Oc, the other piece is just some some project lifecycle changes and so we can take a look at both of those the projects again. very similar to what we see within the Hyper Ledger Foundation, where we'll be made up of a a number of different projects.
Tracy Kuhrt: So
Tracy Kuhrt: I think the the rest of this probably not too important for this group. they're really about member benefits and that sort of thing.
Tracy Kuhrt: I think you know I'm going to pause here, but I do want to also take you through kind of the governing documents and that sort of thing. Just so you can see the project lifecycle. But I I think I'll pause just to see if there's any questions at this point.
Tracy Kuhrt: Yeah, Alex.
Alex Metcalf: Hi, thank you.
Alex Metcalf: very interesting. Just found the slides on the side of as well.
Alex Metcalf: One question which may be very basic.
Alex Metcalf: But the the slides imply that the well imply. They suggest that the focus is more on personal wallets.
Alex Metcalf: as opposed to say, business wallets, or
Alex Metcalf: what abstract ideas it was, can you speak to that at all?
Tracy Kuhrt: Yeah. So there there is definitely, I think, that sort of view. But there has also been the same exact questions and commentary that you just asked about. How do we? How do we expand this definition of wallet beyond just a a personal wallet to think about organizational wallets to think about. you know different sorts of bullets that might even be for devices those sorts of things.
Tracy Kuhrt: I don't think that there's any restrictions around us saying that these projects are only going to be focused on
Tracy Kuhrt: personal wallets. I think that's just the in general, the the way that the the slides have been written. you know, I think it's going to be completely up to the Technical Advisory Council as to whether or not a project makes sense to bring into the Alpha Wallet Foundation the same way that we do in the Hyper Ledger Foundation. When the technical oversight committee gets to decide what makes sense to bring in.
Tracy Kuhrt: my, my, take on this is that anything that
Tracy Kuhrt: we'll help with the
Tracy Kuhrt: aspects of wallets and interoperability between those wallets is is completely fair game to bring into the open wallet foundation.
Tracy Kuhrt: we haven't put any sort of limitations at this point in in the Technical Advisor Council about the sorts of projects that will be accepting. So you know.
Tracy Kuhrt: I think it's important to note that, whereas Hyper Ledger Foundation has been around for a while, they've gone through a number of different technical oversight committees and have some sort of at least, if not written down. Some sort of you know, community based knowledge that exist about the sorts of projects that they would accept. That hasn't happened yet obviously in the opening of the foundation, because of the the newness of the open wallet foundation.
Tracy Kuhrt: I would expect that as we get in project proposals, and we see, you know, where those edges are of the sorts of projects, then we can start to to better define, you know. Yes, this makes sense or no, this doesn't make sense. But at this point we're not there yet.
Tracy Kuhrt: Perfect. Thank you.
Tracy Kuhrt: All right. If there's no other questions
Tracy Kuhrt: at this point, I do want to just quickly run you through kind of this Tac, website that we put together just so that you guys can can have a look.
Tracy Kuhrt: so this this page here is just an introduction to what the Technical Advisor Council is. All of the information that's on. It is based on the charter that exists for the open wallet foundation. So there's a number of responsibilities that the Tac has around.
Tracy Kuhrt: that that strategic vision that we are just kind of talking about for for the community itself, making any sort of recommendations as far as what money we should spend for development sorts of resources or technical sorts of resources to the In this case it'll be the governing board and then obviously electing that chair person
Tracy Kuhrt: creating and maintaining our project, lifecycle procedures and processes, determining when that technical project should be a minute and any other matters that the governing board might be necessary.
Tracy Kuhrt: The again, as I mentioned this is one change right now between the way that the the makeup of the tac exist in the Open Wallet Foundation versus the Technical Oversight Committee and the Hyper Ledger Foundation. about who is part of this?
Tracy Kuhrt: so
Tracy Kuhrt: yeah, I think that's just an an important call out right now again, I don't see that this is probably long term. I do. For potentially see, once we start to get a number of projects in that this may change, but we'll we'll see how that all works out, what people want to do.
Tracy Kuhrt: all the meetings are captured. Meeting notes. Recordings are captured in this meetings. Tab, if you are interested in seeing any of the discussions that we've had feel free to take a look at that.
Tracy Kuhrt: The governing documents? again, mostly based on what we've done in the Hyper Ledger Foundation, that the main difference probably is
Tracy Kuhrt: around the these 2, the project life Cycle and the project annual review process.
Tracy Kuhrt: specifically, if we look at the project life cycle and we take a look at the different stages. this is where you'll see a difference.
Tracy Kuhrt: So we do have labs as a true portion of this project.
Tracy Kuhrt: stages that exist.
Tracy Kuhrt: we do have obviously in the Hyper Ledger Foundation have labs. But it's not really part of the The stages. You can see. You can actually come back to a lab stage if during the annual reviews that make sense to do that
Tracy Kuhrt: which is not the case, there's no going back right now in the Hyper Ledger foundation, life cycle.
Tracy Kuhrt: growth is very similar to what we have for incubation.
Tracy Kuhrt: but we do call it a growth stage because it's about achieving different growth metrics. And then impact is when you've got people who are actually using your projects. And there's some impact in the ecosystem and and so that's a bit different than what we have in the Hyper Ledger Foundation. where we have a graduate, and we can basically stay and graduate it as possible to come from impact and go back to growth or to come from impact and go back to labs.
Tracy Kuhrt: so just, you know, not. Be aware that that is a a difference in the way that we look at things within the Open World Foundation, between the Hyper Ledger foundation.
Tracy Kuhrt: The second difference is obviously this project annual review process for annually we'll take a look at each of the projects to make sure. you know whether a lab is active or we need to just archive
Tracy Kuhrt: that repo to make sure that first stage projects are actually making progress towards their impact stage, and whether impact stage projects is maintaining their progress to actually remain in the impact stage. So this is a a a difference between the the 2 projects.
Tracy Kuhrt: all of these other things probably very much based on something you'd seen the Hyper Ledger Foundation with Major. Maybe some minor discrepancies and differences, but nothing that is major enough for me to remember at this point, and to bring up to the group
Tracy Kuhrt: questions kind of on this project life cycle. Because I think this is like I said, a bit different than the the hyper ledge information one.
Tracy Kuhrt: Okay, if there's no questions on that. Just 2 other, or maybe a couple of other points. We do have special interest groups. We currently have an architecture special interest group.
Tracy Kuhrt: It's been going on since before the open Wallet foundation started. so we do have a number of things that exist in the architecture, so that we've been talking about. We just recently brought in this credential format comparison. that is based on
Tracy Kuhrt: some of the work that was done at the identity Internet identity workshop as well as the reboot rebooting web of trust. back in 2022. So there's some some information on comparing the different sorts of credentials as well as the the rebooting web of trust paper. that was written
Tracy Kuhrt: the other piece. Right now we've got a task force that's spoken specifically on id for BC. Looking at projects that might exist, and whether or not we could find projects who are interested in contributing to the over wallet foundation.
Tracy Kuhrt: and then, just lastly, working on this page today, locally these are the 2 projects that we have in their their current life cycles, Page.
Tracy Kuhrt: So I think with that, I'm gonna stop talking for a bit because my voice seems to wanna disappear at the moment I'd see what sort of questions where I should have focused, that I didn't focus things that you're interested in and we can take a look at that.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Thank you, Tracy. For questions.
Helen Garneau: Hey, Tracy? this is Helen Garneau. thank you so much for the great presentation. I found it really informative to sort of see where it came, where open wallet foundation came from, and and the mission and all that in the overview. I think I was at the in Dublin at the first
Helen Garneau: sort of meeting before it, I guess, was the finish officially launched. And it yeah, it. Just it seemed like there was a lot of excitement. And it it. Yeah, it sounds like really cool program.
Helen Garneau: I was just curious. One of the one of the questions that was brought up in one of the previous areas meetings was about the different foundations that to be a member. that that I'll sort of deal with. You know this kind of world of well, it's an identity and governance and etc. And to be a member for of organization, especially startup organization, to be a member of, say to IP and diff and Hyper Ledger. And now, owf!
Helen Garneau: you know, it could be that there is a kind of a financial drawback in in maintaining a presence in all these, you know, kind of communities. I was just wondering if there was ever kind of a a to combining open wallet with another, or like starting it within an an existing project or an existing foundation to try to.
Helen Garneau: You know that mitigate some of the the kind of
Helen Garneau: issues that that might come up might arise for an organization kind of spreads in financially, for you know, joining these organizations, or if there was any thought about, you know, growing owf within another foundation or project.
Tracy Kuhrt: Yeah, So.
Tracy Kuhrt: And I, I completely agree with you. It's not even just startups out issues like even the large companies I've talked to a few by, you've been like, well, we can. We can find the budget for participating in another organization. So I think it's it's any organization, right? That the that we have to be concerned about when it comes to creating new projects or new foundations.
Tracy Kuhrt: in the Linux Foundation. So I was not involved in any specific conversations around, you know whether or not open wallet foundation. Well, maybe I should say it was I think I did mention it to somebody I like, hey? Why is this not part of the the Hyper Ledger Foundation?
Tracy Kuhrt: But I do know that there were a number of people who did ask this question right around. Why, my new foundation? Why are we doing this separately? and you know I I don't know that anybody ever got a great answer to that question. when it was asked other than well, there's a lot of interest in what it's, and and so it seems to make sense to to have this as a separate foundation.
Tracy Kuhrt: I will say that there are still ongoing conversations about basically the the number of digital identity or What are they? What are we calling it? The trust ecosystem that exists within the Linux Foundation? and whether or not there's something that we could do to have you know, a single cost. We're participating in all of these foundations versus many different costs.
Tracy Kuhrt: Now, when we have this conversation we're going to need to to basically have a number of people come to the Linux Foundation and say, This is a. This is a concern for us.
Tracy Kuhrt: This is something that we want to change, that we want to do differently. And then we're going to have to figure out how to do that right? there's obviously going to be a lot to
Tracy Kuhrt: questions, concerns that have to be work through things like trademarks, things like
Tracy Kuhrt: governance. You know, each of these different foundations has been governing for their own technical X committee, right? Whatever that a O. S. Is right.
Tracy Kuhrt: so so you know, how do we bring these organizations together? Such that now they're governed in potentially a different way.
Tracy Kuhrt: now we are, we have been told, when I have those conversations with people that this has been done before in the Linux Foundation. but it does require a lot of work to to make that happen. And so in order to make that happen. Obviously, it's it's organizations coming together and saying, Here's what we think needs to be done. And here's how we would do that right like, take in
Tracy Kuhrt: make some sort of proposals. It's that. you know, we can go to each of these different foundations. Have this conversation. See what needs to change? it. It's collaboration across these different organizations to to do this. So
Tracy Kuhrt: I I wouldn't say that it's impossible. but it will require a lot of work. So
Tracy Kuhrt: I think you know, we're we're behind you with that sort of statement at Accenture as well, right? Like, we have the same question of, how do we get a volume discount because we're involved in so many different things?
Tracy Kuhrt: you know, at a minimum. But obviously, nothing's been decided there. And it's really going to require us to to come together as a group of
Tracy Kuhrt: concerned organizations and and bring that to the Linux Foundation, with probably some sort of proposed plan for how we make that happen.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): So I I do feel like we need to mention that neither the Hyper Ledger or Open Wall Foundation requires payment for anyone to be involved, either to use or to contribute to the code of projects
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): the the the membership has to do with sort of being involved in in the sort of the higher level leadership and in governance pieces of those which isn't unimportant, but but but neither organization requires membership to to be involved. For example, in this meeting. you know there, there's I'm sure there's a number that are that are not involved, and that's that's a that they're not paying members
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): to Hyper Ledger or to the Linux Foundation on behalf of Hyper Ledger. And so that that's an important thing to to recognize that from from the perspective of developer developer involvement, both organizations have the same low barrier to entry which I appreciate.
Tracy Kuhrt: Yeah, thank you for that, Sam. It was actually one of the first things that crossed my mind when Helen asked that question, and then I got lost in the answer of the question. but I think it's so important right to recognize that. Yes, you can be involved in any way, shape or form in the community without having to pay a a dime.
Helen Garneau: How did that answer your question? Yeah. Yeah.
Helen Garneau: yeah, it does. It sounds like there is a potential, you know, in that, you know, it twinkle and somebody's eye somewhere. that this could get a little complicated. you know, trying to as you as you described. so looking at the work
Helen Garneau: now to kind of move things around versus later to move things around. I don't know. I just again just trying to throw it all out on the table so we can see what we're you know, kind of looking at. But no, I appreciate your your description, your answer.
Tracy Kuhrt: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously as individual organizations. We're probably not going to be able to make that change. it's gonna have to require a concerted effort by a number of organizations to say, this is
Tracy Kuhrt: this is what we want and to make that go happen
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): more questions.
Tracy Kuhrt: So maybe maybe just to add to this, I was thinking that at some point it might make sense to put together
Tracy Kuhrt: kind of a comparison of where the I the Ledger Foundation, is at with kind of the project services that they offer versus for the overview.
Tracy Kuhrt: Is that so?
Tracy Kuhrt: As I mentioned, right, it's very early days for the Opener Foundation, or you know, let's see, February, March, April may. So we're 3 plus months into this project or into this foundation. There's still a lot that needs to be done. there's Sims around.
Tracy Kuhrt: you know. Do we use confluence to capture this information? Do we use a you know? github pages?
Tracy Kuhrt: Do we use the wiki? So there's, I think, a lot of different sorts of questions around that. if we look at the open wallet foundation, as far as you know, we do have
Tracy Kuhrt: the github set up. We don't necessarily have a ride in the open wallet foundation yet.
Tracy Kuhrt: for those of you to know why, and have work with by with Github and and the way that he works I've been doing basically, some of that on the site. but I'm nowhere near as good as ry at doing this. so this you know, Fyi, that is a a thing that doesn't exist.
Tracy Kuhrt: you know, there's still a lot of work that needs to be done to bring up this organization to the level that the the Harper Ledger Foundation is. you know, within the architecture, Sig, we're actually using the wiki here in github to capture all the meeting minutes and things like that. So you know consistency across
Tracy Kuhrt: the way that we're working at this point is not necessarily something that truly exist. And so, you know, I think it's worthwhile to to just say that we're very early stages. And obviously there's things that you can do in the overwhelming foundation to help drive the direction at this point.
Tracy Kuhrt: versus it having been pretty set in stone and in the Hyper Ledger Foundation. But on the opposite side of that right hyper Ledger foundation is how it is a lot more mature, and what it offers than the open wallet foundation is so
Tracy Kuhrt: completely you know. Just something to be aware of, I guess. and and be cognizant. If if if you decide that the Open World Foundation is the the right place because of the the wallet aspect of things.
Tracy Kuhrt: that you'll be helping us truly build this to to a place that is
Tracy Kuhrt: is where we want it to be.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Tracy. I I very much appreciate your presentations. Any. The the next thing on our agenda is some open discussion. Is there any final comments or questions straight for for Tracy? Before I move to that segment.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Awesome, Tracy. Thank you for that. and I I appreciate you being here in presenting
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): And and with that we can go ahead and move to a little bit more of the open discussion piece of things. The
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): zoom has not yet added. My other favorite feature is when you flip back and forth between sharing and not sharing that it remembers where you position things, but
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): one can only ask for one feature at a time.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): any any thoughts generally about this topic
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): as an open floor issue?
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): I have a couple of my of my own.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): I have been trying to figure out what to do about this issue. And it's complicated. There's enough
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): facets in this conversation to excite a diamond dealer, and and and there's it's it's complex. And there there, there are not obvious straightforward things involved. Yet there seems to be a reasonable amount of pressure to understand what the relationship between areas and the open wall foundation is. And so, and and having having something would be, would be better than having all this discussion, and and simply reaching no conclusion.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): I have been
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): thinking about that. And one of the realizations that I've had is that there's There's a whole lot of similarity that that hasn't really been sort of openly discussed that we all know. But we haven't really been talking about. And and there's a couple of things really obvious. one of them is.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): completely compatible goals. the there's there's there's very close alignment there The licenses are compatible in the sense that it's not like this is a a a code license issue, or or or that in in including the open involvement practices of both organizations are, are are very compatible from that perspective.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): indeed, the the the actual technical or or legal limitations behind use of code from one organization in the other. Organization are just non existent it. It is it is very It's very compatible from that perspective.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): now these are things that we know, but it's occurred to me that they may not be very well known, particularly by the business folks that are sort of evaluating and trying to understand what's going on. And so, in my
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): effort to try and think of something that we could do partially to add a little bit of resolution and be able to move on with the other. very important work that we've got.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): but also to sort of add some clarity to to things. One of the things that I have thought might be possible.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): the
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): the drafting of a collaboration agreement between the Ares Project and the open wallet foundation.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): and that agreement is going to be, I I think, incredibly light. But can highlight the things that I talked about that are they do, and they that that already exist in the ability to work back and forth and to use code across organizations in various projects, etc., and
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): and and and to highlight those things. I think it could also potentially involve sort of the regular sharing of information between groups. to sort of keep the the information flowing that way. Those of us that are unable to attend all of the meetings can still be sort of apprised of what's going on, and understand where our attention might be usefully spent.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): and and and that we could and we we could make that happen that that doesn't practically mean anything, but it provides a couple of things one is is that it? It? It clarifies what's going on in the minds of folks that are kind of looking at. What's you know at the situation, and wondering what's going on?
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): but it also allows for the consideration of involvement to happen at a at a far more granular level. Part of the difficulty in this process is that is the sheer surface area of of Aries as compared to the
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): to the youngness of the open well, foundation presents a fairly daunting task. I think I think, really sort of helpfully highlighted by Tracy. in that there, it's going places. There's things happening. But it is not a clearly at the stage that the Hyper Ledger has simply for a sheer amount of time and and effort. That has been applied in the Hyper Ledger Foundation.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): and and one of the opportunities there. I think that this would be, I think, a relatively simple thing to to craft and while I'm sure it will be a little bit less far than some would like, and a little bit more far than others would like. I think that as a community, I I
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): I think that we can probably arrive at something of that nature. And and and I think what that does, is it? adds some a little bit of sort of time, local resolution to the issue and a and allows for a further conversation to happen at a at a more granular level as their specific interest in in specific libraries, or, you know, specific.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): You know, areas of of collaboration there, I think that that could be useful and and and we can. And we can address those at a at a smaller level rather than sort of at the overall areas level. This certainly does not preclude anything in the future. Should there be a proposal for something of a large scale thing, but certainly allows for sort of the work to sort of move along and continue in in the, in the work that we have been doing.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): and so that was one thought that I had any any thoughts or feedback.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): either on that approach or or other approaches that we could take as a community.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Alex, your hands up.
Alex Metcalf: yeah
Alex Metcalf: with the caveat, that in coming
Alex Metcalf: to this quite fresh and without you guys is depth of experience. Understanding of the new ones.
Alex Metcalf: With that, said, the thought came to me just today, yesterday, the the location. all the housing of areas where it lives to where it technically fits under
Alex Metcalf: any issue around that might be
Alex Metcalf: mitigated to some extent to a greater extent.
Alex Metcalf: when we better communicate out
Alex Metcalf: our value, and what we offer, and how Harry has evolved from its original desk and definition.
Alex Metcalf: and as many facets, I mean. communicate that better, and that might
Alex Metcalf: make the issue of where it needs to be perceived to be under less of a thing.
Alex Metcalf: because if people can easily find
Alex Metcalf: the great work that's being done.
Alex Metcalf: and they get what it is.
Alex Metcalf: then
Alex Metcalf: just thinking about what is just back to the curious about the practical benefits.
Alex Metcalf: that that come from
Alex Metcalf: from moving or changing, or whatever. So that's not to say no. Oh, yes, it's just, I think, that. I just been looking the last week at the some of the key materials. Have a landing page on the Hyper ledger site for Aries
Alex Metcalf: is. it's not just under selling. It's it's missing a a massive opportunity that we can take advantage of to better
Alex Metcalf: promote the amazing things the areas is. And if that's all ramped up and people can find things easily and get a sense of what's going on. The great work is happening.
Alex Metcalf: Will this be the same scale of question as to where it needs to actually be housed?
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Alex. Thanks for that, thought I. feel a little bit guilty about this.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): because not that I'm paid for this or elected for it, really. But serving is is somewhat of a community organizer for the Areas project. I feel like our focus has been on on the doing and not on the marketing
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): and and open source is often called the doocracy, and that that is true. But I think that we have suffered as a community because we have not accurately represented ourselves in the minds of others, and and even though we have sometimes been aware of misperceptions, have not done a sufficiently good job
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): of of of taking advantage of the opportunities that we have, as you describe, to make sure that the online assets properly represent what what we are. And I and I definitely think that that, regardless of any other location change that that increased attention to to marketing and to
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): awareness of of projects is something that I have personally learned is more important than I had previously been giving energy to
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): and not that I can be blamed for the success or failure of the community, but I I feel like My own personal realization about that has has been sort of quite stark in the last little bit. and I and I definitely am looking forward to better opportunities for for for that kind of activity in the future.
Alex Metcalf: Well, I think the little I understand is how much you've done, some that should be absolutely 0, and play will go on your sizes to any position you have. And then now it's your but you can see now there's great things to be said that this is shaping up some stuff which I share with a few of you last couple of days, and this lot more to do. I think there's a lot of opportunity to
Alex Metcalf: to sing the praises now, and I think now, as the natural time, it's come out more because of
Alex Metcalf: things are moving really fast. It's not Let's say, a tenth of a proving ground the same way anymore. There's going to be a fast moving of solutions and standards and people having
Alex Metcalf: their favorite
Alex Metcalf: solution to all the needs that are emerging very quickly because it's not going anywhere. It's not going away.
Alex Metcalf: So
Alex Metcalf: I just think an acceleration of interest is happening right now. and lots of things, lots of lines in the fire. So I don't think it's a missed thing as much as now. It's an obvious chance. Let's do it. Let's
Alex Metcalf: what it is. It's it's the best marketing position to have when you've got something which is great which can be marketed more clearly as opposed to trying to squeeze the last few drops to choose out of something that's that's not up to the job. So we're in the form which is perfect.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Alex. Thanks for making me feel a little better. Tracey, your hands up.
Tracy Kuhrt: Yeah, Sam, I wanted to ask about the collaboration agreement that you suggested. do you have collaborative collaboration agreements with
Tracy Kuhrt: any?
Tracy Kuhrt: sorry, Zoom is telling me it looks like I'm done talking, but I'm not So do you have any collaboration agreements with anybody who any of the other foundations, I guess, is is the thing that we can base this on.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): Well, we don't, because it's a little weird. normally, collaboration agreements are done at an org level, and Aries is, is not an org so much as a as a project. So there are agreements, for example, between like Hyper ledger and diff, and I know those organizations in the open wall foundation. But the the issue at hand is not how necessarily, how Hyper Ledger feels about the open wall foundation. But how the Ariz project specifically does so this would be a little different, because this has never quite come up the same way before.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): If it's less of an agreement and more. I I don't even know if, like legally, we as a community can sign an agreement exactly. But but I definitely think some so something published is what I mean to that effect. Well, here, here's here's one of the things that I've realized. The maturity of the open wall foundation makes it largely an inappropriate move to to suddenly decide, to move everything over to Hercules, and amount of effort to one degree. But the other side is is that
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): is, that it's a little unfair for both Aries and the open well foundation to to make such a a rapid move so fast. But what I don't want to do is necessarily foul things up by kind of saying no, or simply not doing anything, and then and then sort of like leaving people unsure of what the goals of areas really are, and and and because the goals are so aligned, I think that making some noise
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): about.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): To to to Alex's point, to making some noi and noisy about what we do believe in at this moment, I think, could actually be a a really beneficial thing for both Aries and the open Wall foundation.
Tracy Kuhrt: Yeah, anything that we can do that, you know.
Tracy Kuhrt: help with the the work, the collaboration across the, you know, foundation areas, I think, is important for us to to do, regardless of how we move forward.
Tracy Kuhrt: So, you know, happy to help with in any way I can with that
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): very cool. So I realized that it's hard to talk about something in the abstract and given a Time machine. I would have loved to approach this
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): this meeting with maybe somewhat of a draft of an agreement or some sort of statement that we can make as a community. I have that on my list to attempt to draft such a thing. I I am without the authority, of course, to say something on behalf of the entire my Aries community without a significant sign, offer or approval, or at least non objection from the Aries community, and so
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): I will commit to having such a thing present at our next meeting a hopefully in advance. so that we can gather some feedback and and improve it, and and then at some point obviously sooner is better than later. you know. Reach some some unified thing on it. If someone has a better approach than than this, I I'm I'm all ears I'm just trying to figure out the sort of the right thing that we can that we can do to to sort of take the next
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): step, or or move forward in a way that that helps us as a community to sort of manage the issue in the public understanding of what's going on.
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): we are out of time. I appreciate everyone being here. Please jump on the Aries channel, or if I can be helpful or or if and then, as soon as I have some sort of a draft. I will circulate that also on on the the discord channel for Aries. and so please keep an eye there
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): in advance of our next meeting. Tracy, I appreciate you coming and presented today and and I look forward to maybe finally having an idea about something that we can do. and we will see you all
Sam Curren (TelegramSam): elsewhere, and all the other calls we are in together, and and next week. Thanks everybody.