Michael Lodder: hey Mr Nathan.
Nathan George: Hello.
Nathan George: There, how many folks will actually get on the call this this round, but.
Michael Lodder: And I know i've been super busy and swamped it's been terrible.
Nathan George: Well it's good to be busy as long as it's the right kind of busy.
Michael Lodder: Lots of work changes so.
um.
Michael Lodder: I wouldn't necessarily say it's a good thing.
Nathan George: So stuff.
Michael Lodder: we're.
Michael Lodder: Good though.
i'm.
Michael Lodder: Sorry, what.
Nathan George: i'm having a lot of those on my side to.
Michael Lodder: Like with boss changes or with what.
Nathan George: a bunch of different things have to keep keep us decided to wrap up to keep a protocol projects so we're in the process of.
Nathan George: Integrating my team into the marketplace side and taking over some of the initiatives over there and figuring out how will.
Nathan George: Well what's next for a whole bunch of things that are not self sovereign identity related.
Michael Lodder: Oh so you're kind of getting out of it a little bit.
Nathan George: Well, at least in terms of the day, my day job.
Michael Lodder: I see.
Michael Lodder: I just finished writing the non credits 2.0 spec so.
Nathan George: Where are you publishing.
Michael Lodder: A I haven't decided yet.
Nathan George: Well i'm interested in reading it and trying to figure out, you know what I can do to help.
Michael Lodder: Okay.
Michael Lodder: But I mean I can kind of show you a little bit of what i've got if that's helpful.
Nathan George: Oh, we are officially recording the call, so we should mention that first we just started at nine o'clock we'll do another welcome to folks once we get a couple minutes in, but you can go ahead Mike.
Michael Lodder: Okay well it's just you and me so.
Michael Lodder: See.
Michael Lodder: trying to figure out where to begin.
Nathan George: Now that parts here, we should say.
Nathan George: Remember that this is a hyper ledger.
Nathan George: Community call, and please abide by the code of content conduct and the antitrust policy if you need more information on those you can see them by visiting wiki hyper ledger.org.
Nathan George: And for those who are joining through the recording, this is the hyper ledger or a call that happens every other week.
Nathan George: At this time on Wednesdays in the US and we talked about cryptography and the shared crypto library, that is hyper ledger ursa.
Nathan George: We don't really have a big or fixed agenda today because cam our normal discussion lead is out, so he asked me to make sure that this call still happens, though I did not have the presenter code so.
Nathan George: We can't do anything to change or alter the recording of them to join and leave unless part or someone else wants to take.
Hart Montgomery: Over I believe it is 142536.
Nathan George: And now that's in our recording.
Hart Montgomery: As far as public anyway or semi public.
Michael Lodder: I will just tell you guys know, I have a hard stop at.
Michael Lodder: 930.
Hart Montgomery: might be to actually.
Nathan George: So so with that we will price this call will end at 930.
Nathan George: At night Mike is.
Nathan George: It has some cool stuff to talk to us about with be a non credit to point O paper and so we're gonna go with that.
Michael Lodder: yeah, this is a my first draft, so he kind heart.
Michael Lodder: But basically i'm just starting with like notation type stuff so anytime you see these calligraphy letters it's.
Hart Montgomery: I know pretty much all.
Hart Montgomery: This all of those mean.
Michael Lodder: So.
Hart Montgomery: How do you put to a okay.
Hart Montgomery: hashing to a prime is.
Hart Montgomery: A little non standard, but whatever.
Michael Lodder: Well it's very for rsc based accumulators.
Hart Montgomery: Understand I understand.
Hart Montgomery: Fine.
Hart Montgomery: it's just not what you've had that how people would usually write that it's all.
Michael Lodder: I couldn't find anything in the literature, so I invented one.
Hart Montgomery: yeah it will it does exist it's just not usually defined as a hash function that's fine.
yeah.
Michael Lodder: So anyway, as far as a.
Michael Lodder: Claims go.
Michael Lodder: Basically, just said that claims are either hashed or their interpreted as a 64 bit number, as is and that's and that's about it so.
Hart Montgomery: 64 bit number six four byte number.
Michael Lodder: Well, no 64 bit number and But then when they're mapped to a scale or you just take it as the bottom value.
Hart Montgomery: it's 64 bits enough.
Michael Lodder: For a steeler.
Michael Lodder: yeah.
Nathan George: But yeah because when we just say if it's bigger than what fits in the integer then we hash it and use that.
Michael Lodder: Now we don't even hash it you just take it as is.
Michael Lodder: So.
Hart Montgomery: Okay.
Nathan George: I was meaning if it's something that's bigger than 64 bits like a string or.
Michael Lodder: yeah yeah i'm talking about numbers like no age or.
Hart Montgomery: Oh sighs I gotcha Okay, so in the I guess you need nothing bigger than okay fine.
Hart Montgomery: yep.
Hart Montgomery: i'm trying i'm trying to come up with something that would be bigger than 64 bits but.
Michael Lodder: No, I mean you can go into crypto currencies hundred or 256 bit numbers but i'm not where the non creds most people aren't doing that so.
Michael Lodder: This is mostly just kind of the data layout of how things would look like optional validators which are just input validators for the claims what what can be blindly signed.
Michael Lodder: The three types a hash a number or just Ross gaylor.
Michael Lodder: that's about it.
Michael Lodder: So this is just kind of the data lay out the data models.
Michael Lodder: This just describes kind of what I call for presentations you have statements and conditions, so the statements are all of the proofs that could appear in a presentation that conditions are.
Michael Lodder: kind of or the combination of statements that will satisfy the proof, so you can think of it as I have 10 statements and then the conditions, say, you must satisfy one or three or one and two or and so on, like that.
Michael Lodder: So it's a combination all thing and oars and not that's about it that's all it does.
Hart Montgomery: To essentially so the statements are like your your base layer and then conditions are just a circuit on like.
Michael Lodder: yep what combination of statements meets the proof.
Hart Montgomery: require handle complicated, can you handle things that are.
Hart Montgomery: boolean formulas.
Michael Lodder: For the statements.
Michael Lodder: knots yeah we can do and or not.
Hart Montgomery: It is your representation, so your representation is binary circuits right, can you handle thresholds.
Michael Lodder: way mean threshold so like for a condition.
Hart Montgomery: Three out of five statements must be true.
Michael Lodder: yeah well that's what that's what you would do with the conditions and say one of these.
Hart Montgomery: So okay so.
Michael Lodder: You can just specify what the conditions, you can say like Okay, I have 10 statement or five statements, so you say one and two and three or one and two and four one and two and five, and so on, so you have quite a few conditions and use pick one.
Hart Montgomery: equipment that doesn't that doesn't scale Okay, so I guess my my main complaint right now is that you should explicitly spell out the languages that the conditions are allowed to take.
Michael Lodder: Well that's partially what this is right so indicates one and two or and so on yeah I guess.
Hart Montgomery: You need to say like.
Hart Montgomery: The conditions are like take the form of a binary circuit or something right with and.
Michael Lodder: yeah I mean it's it's pretty when you say it doesn't scale it's pretty low it's just numbers.
Hart Montgomery: or ids well, but you you just if you don't have like a threshold gate if I asked you to give me like.
Michael Lodder: hey why, why are you thinking of binary circuit.
Michael Lodder: This is not a binary circuit.
Hart Montgomery: Well, you have and or is it not right.
Michael Lodder: For conditions right.
Michael Lodder: Yes, not this is not cryptographic circuits right, this is just.
Hart Montgomery: say.
Michael Lodder: So when we go on it and so like different statements like a Punch and will Sanders signature or a bbs.
Michael Lodder: Plus signature right.
Hart Montgomery: Okay uh huh.
Michael Lodder: These are the types of proofs.
Hart Montgomery: or statements, what about the conditions.
Michael Lodder: yeah so the condition when say you need so say this was one and two and three and four, for example.
Hart Montgomery: Is, which is a binary circuit right.
binary longer.
Hart Montgomery: But.
Hart Montgomery: OK, so I guess what i'm recommending is that you define explicitly what the you just define the condition language structure, whatever more explicitly.
Michael Lodder: Okay.
Hart Montgomery: it's not.
Hart Montgomery: it's not entirely clear to me what you're allowing me to do with this right.
Michael Lodder: Well Okay, so a little more words around that but it's basically you just say and and then each statement has an ID so you'd say and and then all of a statement ids that that that condition requires you can do not you can do or.
Hart Montgomery: The statue and not in orders are like binary are the classical binary circuit representation, Kate so that's why I said that right.
yeah.
Hart Montgomery: So, and it looks like your statements are binary right you're not interpreting them as anything where the true or false right.
Michael Lodder: that's correct.
Hart Montgomery: So this you're exactly doing your conditions are exactly doing a binary circuit right.
Michael Lodder: yep.
Hart Montgomery: Your statements are your input bits and your conditions are taking a circuit of those and checking if they're satisfied right.
Michael Lodder: that's right.
Hart Montgomery: yeah So if you like, if you spell that out, it will be much clear.
Michael Lodder: Okay.
Hart Montgomery: You won't have to have this conversation the next person who comes.
Nathan George: yeah literature normalization we gather the circuits idea is really I think it would help us understand credentials to because there's a lot more momentum behind the crypto circuits, as fellow pencils even.
Hart Montgomery: Though she's not a crypto circuit, this is just a standard.
Michael Lodder: Just binary.
Hart Montgomery: that existed long before.
Hart Montgomery: Up otter in cryptography.
Michael Lodder: Okay, so there's well I say all any and not because all is just and or is any it's just.
Hart Montgomery: yeah so.
Michael Lodder: You know.
Hart Montgomery: And or not.
Michael Lodder: Well, most most non technical people prefer all in any.
Michael Lodder: My marketing perspective that's.
Hart Montgomery: Good to get technical people reading this.
Michael Lodder: Well, it.
Michael Lodder: I think it's fine, to be honest.
Michael Lodder: All in any year also understood.
Michael Lodder: Okay.
Michael Lodder: So I mean this is all that's in a credential.
Michael Lodder: We put in like what schema its associated with the actual signature that represents this what public key can be used to verify it the claims that we're in and we just represent them as Bytes and.
Michael Lodder: there's like flags that we say hey, this is actually printable or not so like say my first name that's principle but, like a binary file that might get signed as a claim is obviously not principal.
Michael Lodder: revocation ideas like there's a revocation identifier.
Michael Lodder: A revocation handle this is since we're using.
Michael Lodder: accumulators, this is your witness we call the handle the revocation value is just the accumulator itself and then, if there is a public key associated with the accumulator that's in there to some like RSA key members don't have a public key but.
Michael Lodder: Finally, in your map ones do and i'm pretty sure that the lattice based ones do, but you can correct me if i'm wrong cart.
Michael Lodder: Do as well.
Hart Montgomery: I didn't even know what the lattice base construction is.
Michael Lodder: I thought that's what you are working on.
Hart Montgomery: Oh, I have, I mean it's like.
Hart Montgomery: So.
Hart Montgomery: I wrote the paper on like.
Hart Montgomery: About like to this sort of well, we tried this it's complicated, I guess, like.
Hart Montgomery: You can do these from very like if you assume fit you can do this, but it's sort of.
Hart Montgomery: It doesn't.
Hart Montgomery: there's nothing remotely efficient anyway so.
Michael Lodder: I see okay.
Michael Lodder: Well then, I just dive into the protocols.
Hart Montgomery: But yeah technically the RSA wants to have public keys.
Michael Lodder: Well, they have public parameters and I usually public keys.
Hart Montgomery: it's a fine line I.
Michael Lodder: mean that's the same thing.
Hart Montgomery: Well, public parameters usually like global that everybody uses in public keys are usually.
Hart Montgomery: Specific user.
Hart Montgomery: So I like pick a modulus that's not going to be necessarily a public parameter right.
Michael Lodder: that's it yeah it's the public key all right, I just don't think of it is that way, but I guess it is.
Michael Lodder: alrighty.
Michael Lodder: So, then, I just described the actual protocols for credential issue with the exact algorithms will check out blow revocation.
Michael Lodder: update and then I just walked through here's all the math for each step for each thing, how to do an ekg how to do commitments so if you want to bind to bulletproof snarks or starks you can do this out of the Vb accumulator works, how the.
Michael Lodder: BF accumulator works.
Michael Lodder: I do el-gamal verifiable and corruption.
Hart Montgomery: And you have a plan to write a security proof for this.
Michael Lodder: Yes, I do so.
Hart Montgomery: How.
Michael Lodder: I once I get it more drafted.
Michael Lodder: than I have but.
Hart Montgomery: More asking about like your framework or like.
Michael Lodder: Oh, I haven't gotten there yet man I got to finalize some stuff first.
Michael Lodder: So.
Michael Lodder: But it's a bit we're being it's one of the reviewers will be analysts sense yeah so.
Hart Montgomery: Yes, so.
Hart Montgomery: Let me show you what people are going crazy about.
How is this.
Hart Montgomery: yeah.
Hart Montgomery: So if you really want to do this right.
Hart Montgomery: You want to write it in a uc style format.
Michael Lodder: Oh okay yeah i've seen this.
Hart Montgomery: So that's like.
Michael Lodder: That.
Hart Montgomery: yeah he will.
Hart Montgomery: So, are you working with him on this.
Michael Lodder: Well, when I presented it to him he's like this is not my area of expertise.
Hart Montgomery: yeah but see like obligated to help you other stuff.
Michael Lodder: yeah more or less.
Hart Montgomery: than you could you should help him like.
Hart Montgomery: he'll probably get excited if you ask him to help you write it in this like framework.
Michael Lodder: Maybe he's he's tied up doing other stuff right now that the company.
Hart Montgomery: Understand but.
Hart Montgomery: This is like a research thing that he cares about.
Michael Lodder: As you see, mm hmm okay.
Hart Montgomery: he's on that paper right.
yeah.
Hart Montgomery: So.
Hart Montgomery: You know.
Hart Montgomery: You might be more willing to help them with like a random question I guess.
Hart Montgomery: yeah but yeah this is this is kind of how you like, because you have like a wildly interactive system right.
Hart Montgomery: And maybe you can't exactly use this framework.
Hart Montgomery: Because like.
Hart Montgomery: Some things are basically impossible to do efficiently in the uc model like commitments.
Hart Montgomery: And you're you know, certainly implicitly doing commitments so maybe.
Hart Montgomery: Maybe it doesn't work.
Hart Montgomery: But you kind of want to write your definitions in this style.
Michael Lodder: Okay.
Hart Montgomery: in any way right like anonymous credentials have a really, really nice and simple ideal model.
Michael Lodder: yeah well that's partially why i'm also reaching out to and I cuz she said she knows how to do do that very easily and she's done you see before but.
Hart Montgomery: i'm sure she has some point.
Michael Lodder: She has.
Michael Lodder: No, but anyway, the anon credits to covers revocation where you have you can broken broken anytime or you can do revoked based on the timestamp or in times presentable anyway it's got a lot of that in there.
Michael Lodder: So.
yeah.
Hart Montgomery: that's.
Hart Montgomery: That sounds good you've got a lot of a lot of proof reading to do right.
Michael Lodder: yeah don't remind me I know.
Michael Lodder: The thing is, like i'm not inventing any of the primitives so individually, I can just reference those but as a whole yeah there's some work to do.
Hart Montgomery: But you're reinventing the system right.
Michael Lodder: reinventing.
Hart Montgomery: guys you're inventing a system.
Michael Lodder: Yes, yeah that's.
Michael Lodder: The mission and all that stuff.
Hart Montgomery: The primitives may not compose perfectly right.
Michael Lodder: Right.
Michael Lodder: Some of it, some of it run by yon mostly just kind of give it a headline so yeah looks good then like oh Okay, no, I was looking for more than that so.
Hart Montgomery: yeah I mean if you like, if you like, put this together, this is enough for like an academic paper at a security conference, if you have like a proof and an implementation.
Hart Montgomery: So you know.
Hart Montgomery: Like if you submitted to like crypto they might say this, you know.
Hart Montgomery: They might not be as interested, but if you submitted to like us to X or something right.
Hart Montgomery: Then this is like you know, a system that they would appreciate right.
Michael Lodder: Is next are real crypto.
Hart Montgomery: us next for CCS or oakland or your real world crypto too, but that's like not a not technically a conference.
Michael Lodder: Oh that's right because there's no real proceedings.
So.
Michael Lodder: Fair enough.
Hart Montgomery: So anyway, just a thought.
Michael Lodder: Okay.
Hart Montgomery: But.
Hart Montgomery: yeah.
Hart Montgomery: I mean the the coinbase team ought to be able to help you with the proof, but.
Hart Montgomery: If you need it, let me know.
Michael Lodder: hey.
Hart Montgomery: But like obviously they have enough people were like if you have their time you know you certainly don't need me.
Michael Lodder: Well, I mean between us there's only four of them that are actual real researchers.
So.
Michael Lodder: Right now, is all in PC based stuff.
Hart Montgomery: But any of them are capable right.
Hart Montgomery: Oh yeah so.
Hart Montgomery: yeah.
yep.
Hart Montgomery: So, technically, this is an.
Hart Montgomery: mpc right.
Michael Lodder: yeah there's yeah.
Hart Montgomery: For the most part it's pretty thick is.
Michael Lodder: REC.
Michael Lodder: It for the most part it's a two party.
Right.
Hart Montgomery: Lisa.
Hart Montgomery: party well it's a it's a many party right is that the issue you're going to have right is that you have multiple users right.
Hart Montgomery: On your credential system and you need it so that like one user can't.
Hart Montgomery: The activities of one user don't hurt the activities of another user right yes.
Michael Lodder: Okay yeah when you.
Hart Montgomery: This is going to be very tricky for you to define from a.
Hart Montgomery: security perspective right.
Yes.
Hart Montgomery: Because like.
Hart Montgomery: yeah Sam and I have been working a lot on this for the Blind accumulator discussion.
Hart Montgomery: This is extremely tricky.
Hart Montgomery: Particularly when you want anonymity so.
Hart Montgomery: it's led to some like subtle.
Hart Montgomery: We found some subtle mistakes that we made.
Hart Montgomery: Like we wrote the protocol in a way that like.
Hart Montgomery: A clever adversary, can you something to break out an empty.
Hart Montgomery: that's okay well if you reorder this it's fine.
Hart Montgomery: But you know it's not like a major thing, but you know.
Hart Montgomery: Just worth considering so.
yeah.
Michael Lodder: Well, like I said, every time I keep writing it and going through they find little mistakes like from a practical perspective.
Michael Lodder: And like yeah you know.
Hart Montgomery: In the.
Hart Montgomery: point is that if you write things out and these like uc frameworks or uc style protocol, the writing it out is like super time consuming and tedious, but it will force you to catch all of these little mistakes.
Michael Lodder: yeah well.
Michael Lodder: Also coding this you know feeling like Oh, what about this, what about that.
Hart Montgomery: yeah so that's the other great thing about all the juicy stuff is, if you have the description.
Hart Montgomery: It makes it super easy to code because they've they've literally defined all the interfaces.
Michael Lodder: Oh, really.
Hart Montgomery: So, like particularly something like this, where you have a lot of like network communication.
Hart Montgomery: The uc stuff is fantastic because it describes like exactly how you should handle like messages of different types, you know if you need to throw something away, it will tell you right.
Hart Montgomery: And these are like a lot of like border cases where you can get yourself in trouble if you're not you know if you haven't implemented like implementing a complicated crypto paper right.
Michael Lodder: i'll have to take a look at this you see framework more in depth and if that's.
Michael Lodder: The.
Hart Montgomery: Case there's it's.
Hart Montgomery: it's very useful for practical things.
Hart Montgomery: Were there like lots of parties and chaotic systems.
Hart Montgomery: Right or if there has to be like a lot of communication for a protocol.
Hart Montgomery: So it's really commonly used for everything, like everything involved in like.
Hart Montgomery: A distributed key generation, for instance it's like sort of the standard.
Hart Montgomery: You know a lot of npc stuff.
Hart Montgomery: A lot of like long lasting protocols, a lot of blockchain stuff so.
Hart Montgomery: there's probably a softer introduction than the paper, I sent you.
Hart Montgomery: Then, like there's some weird things about the uc framework but uh.
Michael Lodder: Okay.
Michael Lodder: sounds good.
Michael Lodder: And then, as far as the non creds one fixing that proof i've got you know i've gotten one or two of them down but heart when you and I ran over like when over it doesn't seem like it's very really improves the security that much does it.
Hart Montgomery: Sorry, say that again.
Michael Lodder: So you do remember the non credit one proof that is needed to.
Michael Lodder: fix some things right and add the assurance of the issuer's that.
Did.
Michael Lodder: When you and I, through the proofs they didn't seem to really add that much assurance, but maybe i'm wrong.
Hart Montgomery: Well, what do you mean.
Michael Lodder: Well, somewhat they just seemed really like fuzzy on their guarantees.
Hart Montgomery: The proofs.
yeah.
Hart Montgomery: What do you mean by fuzzy I thought they weren't particularly fuzzy but.
Michael Lodder: They didn't seem like they're very.
Michael Lodder: well defined or they're just they were just very messy and I did think like they really did the job.
Hart Montgomery: Oh yeah they're writing style was awful.
Michael Lodder: yeah.
Hart Montgomery: I mean, it was a theory paper.
Hart Montgomery: You know.
Hart Montgomery: There was not a.
Hart Montgomery: It was not a practical paper right they left us out in this era constant.
Hart Montgomery: Right.
Michael Lodder: yeah yep.
Hart Montgomery: Which is like fine technically technically they didn't say anything correct, but like you know someone's just going to implement that with constant sound as air.
Michael Lodder: yeah.
So.
Michael Lodder: Actually, the easiest thing that we didn't.
Michael Lodder: understand and then checking correct.
Hart Montgomery: It was a nightmare if you're.
Hart Montgomery: If you're mostly involved in implementation work.
Hart Montgomery: yep yeah it was terrible.
Michael Lodder: yeah so like I said i've got about two of them done, but not all four of them.
Oh.
Michael Lodder: it's it's a nightmare.
Michael Lodder: So, because there's two of those proofs that you have to generate they're just super large.
Hart Montgomery: yeah yeah.
Michael Lodder: it's not.
Hart Montgomery: Another great will like you should give a real world crypto talk about all of the like bad things you found it for many papers.
Michael Lodder: yeah I could maybe they'll finally get the author's attention on some of these because some of them are like tell the author hey you're missing this information or that I don't hear back.
Hart Montgomery: And I would be careful about explicitly calling people out, but if you do it like anonymously.
Hart Montgomery: The.
Michael Lodder: Just the i'm emailing them directly, I wouldn't do that at the conference.
Hart Montgomery: Oh yeah but I mean you can say at the conference that like you know, the majority of people right.
Hart Montgomery: You know didn't respond or something right.
Michael Lodder: yeah.
Hart Montgomery: So.
Hart Montgomery: yeah.
Hart Montgomery: anyway.
Michael Lodder: yeah well like I said I wrote a blog once and then, finally, one of the author said oh that was just some little thing that we just assumed everybody knew blah blah blah, but I guess, we should address that and then they still haven't.
Michael Lodder: So it's I don't know.
Michael Lodder: it's kind of the one of the big frustrations as an implementing.
Hart Montgomery: got.
Their attention.
Michael Lodder: it's on their radar as far as I can tell it's just i'm not they're all about publishing papers.
Hart Montgomery: yeah they're researchers, they get graded on whether they publish right.
Hart Montgomery: it's mostly like.
Hart Montgomery: But conferences are they getting their papers into right and how much interest or their papers getting right so there's a lot of like gaming trying to essentially just game, the system right and just get papers into conferences and it doesn't matter what like nothing else matters.
Hart Montgomery: So.
Hart Montgomery: If you talk to a long time academics they'll get pretty fired up about this.
Hart Montgomery: Like.
Hart Montgomery: The PCs are failing the Community kind of talk, but.
Hart Montgomery: You know, like, why are all these papers, you know.
Hart Montgomery: So anyway.
Hart Montgomery: But yeah it's a it's a legit problem, but I mean if you like.
Hart Montgomery: yeah.
Hart Montgomery: On the other hand, these ucs papers is great for implementation so.
Okay.
Michael Lodder: Well, thanks guys I gotta run, believe it or not, i'm getting roped into teaching a course this fall.
Michael Lodder: it's called technical privacy.
Michael Lodder: excited though it's it's more of like you know because everybody has governance.
Michael Lodder: risk and compliance so everybody can do it all, in theory, but how do you actually technically do this type of stuff.
Michael Lodder: So.
they're.
Michael Lodder: At the same university i'm finishing my PhD they want it, they they said hey we really want to because I when I did my dissertation proposal.
Michael Lodder: They said hey This is great to we teach a course on this stuff and I said sure.
Michael Lodder: here's how I would teach it they're like okay great now I didn't hear anything until like a week ago, and then and we got this approved by the Board of regents could you teach it this fall wait what.
Michael Lodder: So we'll see how this goes, so I actually have to go meet with the border regions, right now, so.
Hart Montgomery: All right, all right.
Hart Montgomery: Talk to you later thanks so high.
Michael Lodder: yeah so don't don't propose something I guess unless you actually want to do it.
Michael Lodder: So alrighty.
Hart Montgomery: email me if you need any help with that stuff.
Michael Lodder: Okay sounds good, I.
Hart Montgomery: should have plenty of people to help with.
Michael Lodder: Oh yeah.
Michael Lodder: yeah there's no shortage there, so I should be fine i'll let you know.
Hart Montgomery: Alright, so have like the bye bye.
Nathan George: And with that we are going to wrap up our meeting for this week we hope you can join us here in two weeks, and hopefully this recording makes it to where it needs to go, so thank you very much.