Aleksandr Petrosyan: Hello, mysterious friend!
Victor Gridnevsky: Hello, there!
Victor Gridnevsky: So the meeting is present among the reminders. So
Victor Gridnevsky: people at them.
Victor Gridnevsky: I don't know if they will. You know that we are early.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: There's no place in in people if it's too early.
Victor Gridnevsky: Okay. Okay.
Dmitri Venger: Hello, my serious Stranger: I think we're alone again. Yeah, both. I'm about to text you. Um!
Dmitri Venger: Is it a deliberate isolation,
Dmitri Venger: or just professional negotiations?
Aleksandr Petrosyan: No idea.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um, both are possible.
Dmitri Venger: I see more people are joining
Aleksandr Petrosyan: there. We go.
Victor Gridnevsky: Hello,
Brent Zundel: hey! Everybody! Does anybody know who's uh leading this meeting?
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Was this a question to us?
Brent Zundel: I was being led by Cam. My understanding is that Cam is no longer
Brent Zundel: able to participate.
Brent Zundel: Um, I have
Brent Zundel: uh overlapping meetings often enough that
Brent Zundel: I don't. I couldn't commit to being the one to lead it regularly.
Um.
Brent Zundel: But perhaps for today we could at the very least go around and introduce ourselves and
Brent Zundel: have a an Ursa focused conversation. I'm happy to leave that today. If folks don't mind
alright,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: this, we should start with
Aleksandr Petrosyan: I'm saying that we
Aleksandr Petrosyan: this is an unfortunate
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Well, they usually needed a fire squad, and i'm your personal fire squad.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: That meant that another project had to be put on. Hold! There's a coming deadline on that one
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and a few people go six. So yeah,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: i'm afraid I wasn't able to do. Was that what I was planning to do
Aleksandr Petrosyan: which was actually introducing
Aleksandr Petrosyan: instrumentation for um
Aleksandr Petrosyan: basically um error handling
Aleksandr Petrosyan: inside of Usa.
Brent Zundel: Nice. Thank you, Alexander,
Brent Zundel: just by way of introduction. My name is Brent.
Brent Zundel: Um.
Brent Zundel: I don't know the name of the company that I currently work for. Uh, it was as of last month. It was a vast,
Brent Zundel: I think, technically right now. It's Norton lifelong,
Brent Zundel: but within a week it's going to be something else, whatever they decide to name it. Um,
Brent Zundel: my official title is Crypto Engineer.
Brent Zundel: I spend most of my time having nothing to do with crypto engineering.
Brent Zundel: Um!
Brent Zundel: I spend most of my days in standards meetings
Brent Zundel: specifically verifiable credentials. Decentralized identifiers, and such
Brent Zundel: um versa holds a special place in my heart.
Brent Zundel: Uh, It's some of the
Brent Zundel: earliest work that we did at Evernham on the anonymous credentials eventually found its home here.
Brent Zundel: Um! I would like to see it succeed as a project,
Brent Zundel: and
Brent Zundel: my boss has generously allowed me personally one hour a week toward that goal which generally means coming to this meeting.
Brent Zundel: Um!
Brent Zundel: That's me. If anybody else wants to say hello or introduce themselves, please unmute and do so.
Dmitri Venger: Yes, let me introduce myself as well. My name is Dmitri. I am a project manager for a team I work for. So me. So So basically, I work closely with Alexander and Victor, who are uh present. Now.
Dmitri Venger: Uh i'm practically i'm taking care of all the admin and uh procedures um
Dmitri Venger: tasks that may rise during the delivery of um, whether uh
Dmitri Venger: our own product, uh which is, or uh
Dmitri Venger: um i'll I'll be helping them uh well to progress with the with the updating and enhancing.
Thank you.
Victor Gridnevsky: I guess it's my turn. So i'm Victor Community commander at so I meet them.
Victor Gridnevsky: Uh, sometimes i'm helping with the code, and sometimes i'm helping with the communication. By the way, Is it all right if I ask a question, because I'm really interested in one part of our
Victor Gridnevsky: Oh, I have no problem with you asking questions sure. So Steven Current and Michael order, and it seems like Michael will be on him uh other, any news on that but
Brent Zundel: um uh beyond, I mean, I've had a couple of conversations with Mike. He's, hoping
Brent Zundel: that his schedule will
Brent Zundel: free up time for him to participate a little bit more fully. I've been encouraging him
Brent Zundel: to participate a little bit more. Um!
Brent Zundel: His comment to
Brent Zundel: Steven was,
Brent Zundel: you know, news to me that he was actually planning on it.
Brent Zundel: Um, I think it's good news
Victor Gridnevsky: uh so course of him. Uh, i'm hoping i'll be able to invest more time into person, so it's not like, but there is hope.
Victor Gridnevsky: So this was interesting for me,
Victor Gridnevsky: and I
Brent Zundel: thank you, Victor
Brent Zundel: Dan, Would you like to introduce yourself?
Kim Ebert: Sure, Um,
Kim Ebert: i'm just working with uh
Kim Ebert: Eric, occupy, and other agents, and that I can check out the uh community. That's all.
Brent Zundel: Are you related to the illustrious Ken?
Kim Ebert: Uh yes,
Brent Zundel: please say hello to your dad for me. Then
Kim Ebert: i'm assuming you
I can.
Brent Zundel: All right.
Brent Zundel: That was fun.
Brent Zundel: Um,
Brent Zundel: we have currently
Brent Zundel: three open pull requests.
Brent Zundel: I like in chat for those
Brent Zundel: there.
Brent Zundel: Um.
Brent Zundel: Two of them
Brent Zundel: are quite out of date
Brent Zundel: opened by my clotter
Brent Zundel: um
Aleksandr Petrosyan: with one hundred and ninety-two
Brent Zundel: um so one hundred and seventy
Brent Zundel: um
Brent Zundel: adds a pairings library, or suggests adding a pairings library.
Brent Zundel: It makes changes to
Brent Zundel: a lot of files
Brent Zundel: as part of the Pr.
Brent Zundel: Um.
Brent Zundel: I
Brent Zundel: reviewed it at one point,
Brent Zundel: and then
Brent Zundel: we
Brent Zundel: had a bit of a conversation
Brent Zundel: about exactly how
Brent Zundel: you know the module should be hosted.
Brent Zundel: Um!
Brent Zundel: And
Brent Zundel: then Mike kind of went dormant. And So this this pr has just sat
Brent Zundel: uh for a long time
Brent Zundel: since uh early two thousand and twenty-one. So
Brent Zundel: um
Aleksandr Petrosyan: uh early two thousand and twenty-two. It was updated on March second.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Uh: Yeah. So there's a few issues which I can think of the top of my head with it.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Uh for one. This you know I build is failing
Aleksandr Petrosyan: um in any regard
Aleksandr Petrosyan: I would not recommend, unless it's a really active repository in which you really know that the code that you're emerging is going to be fine.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Emerging without Cijs is extremely dangerous. This has to be put on ice temporarily, at least,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: until the ci is fixed, or until we verify that the code itself isn't what's causing it to fail?
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um. Judging by the fact that one hundred and ninety-two, c. I checks do pass.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um, I think it's the code that's the problem.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: So reviewing it, we'll have to. Well, basically here's the Here's the problem with it.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: If Michael or Mike. Michael Lauder is
Aleksandr Petrosyan: unable to address those comments very quickly. Us, reviewing the code, would not expedite the process by a much
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um! What is it best distribution is to establish sort of a collaborative editing process where um we are committing direct suggestions which can fix the code
Aleksandr Petrosyan: into an intermediate repository from which we create another pool. Request
Aleksandr Petrosyan: um
Aleksandr Petrosyan: after the pull request clears the ci or other. After we verify with the test which everyone in the C I have uh passing
Aleksandr Petrosyan: um. We
Aleksandr Petrosyan: suggest these changes to be called into his for,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and then I proceed with the call, request
Aleksandr Petrosyan: it's a little bit long, but it it will get his attention, and it will. Shall we say, fix that?
Aleksandr Petrosyan: It takes the issues,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: the two hundred and three. That's the core changes in a little bit more problematic. Let's just say
Aleksandr Petrosyan: um,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: At least they're problematic for us. They might not be for
Aleksandr Petrosyan: to some people. But basically the the issue that we're having is the fact, for fail is deprecated,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and the longer we wait for this active, the more at the Mo code we add with it active,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: the more code will need to be changed to this peak.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: So might make sense to
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Well, actually. No, it's it's a relatively small here,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: so I don't see much of a problem with matching it.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: I do think that it needs to be
Aleksandr Petrosyan: well. It it has the approvals.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: So oh, actually it it has had to approve since August the fourth.
Brent Zundel: Yeah. And at that time
Brent Zundel: we reached out to Cam because there were merge conflicts,
Brent Zundel: and he has not since then had the time to address them.
Brent Zundel: Um! I just today
Brent Zundel: updated it from Main, and we'll see
Brent Zundel: if the the checks complete and what these conflicts look like.
Brent Zundel: But if
Brent Zundel: cam isn't available
Brent Zundel: to address the conflicts himself
Brent Zundel: Um!
Brent Zundel: From what I can tell, he did not,
Brent Zundel: you know, check the box that allows
Brent Zundel: others to make changes to his. Pr. So I can't jump in and try to,
Brent Zundel: you know. Fix the conflicts.
Brent Zundel: I don't think we have a choice at that point other than to close the Pr:
Aleksandr Petrosyan: We have one Internet choice.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um, create a separate yeah parallel with
Aleksandr Petrosyan: um changes rebased from the pull request that is active.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um, but like I said, it's the same process. Um, um! They create a Pr. From x to uh home.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: What we do then is we take X. We create another fork on top of X.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Call it Why we fix,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: we create a call request from why it's at home. We make sure that the poor request passes all checks, and it passes. Review,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Then, when y is clear to merge,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: we close from y to home, we open from one to X, and then we merge X to home.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: I'll say, why is it?
Aleksandr Petrosyan: It's a round trip, but if you have lots of people who are extremely busy, I pull request this is their own repository, something that shows up in the mailbox. A commons on the pull request into another repository can be filter that,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and most people in all that,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: especially if they uh have lots of other work related to Github.
Brent Zundel: I think that that strategy could very well work with Mike's. Pr.
Brent Zundel: I'm not as confident that it could work with cams
Aleksandr Petrosyan: uh What's the issue?
Brent Zundel: Um, I can ping Mike and say, Hey, Mike,
Brent Zundel: we have A. Pr. On your Pr. To fix all the merge conflicts and get it up to date.
Brent Zundel: Review it, and he'll take the time to do that.
Brent Zundel: I don't have the same confidence that Cam would act.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Okay.
Another option is to just uh rewrite. It.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Contents of the Pr. From ground up
Aleksandr Petrosyan: that duplicates what? But it gets the code in.
Brent Zundel: So i'm not opposed to people doing work.
Brent Zundel: Um! I personally would rather enjoy being someone who had the capacity to per participate and contribute. Unfortunately,
Brent Zundel: at this time I don't
Brent Zundel: um,
Brent Zundel: so it's unfair for me to say who's going to do this because I can't raise my hand, but life's unfair. So who's going to do this?
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um! We were planning to work on us. Uh? We have to start somewhere, so might as well.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um. But I do have a feeling that it might just ask the Ci checks, and that's it.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: So Um, let's not turn this into an issue before it is one.
Brent Zundel: Okay,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: because um like,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: let's be completely honest. What are the odds that the person that created this
Aleksandr Petrosyan: was too lazy to just one cargo test and and do that
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and cargo audit, is It's going to be tough to fix
It's It's actually why we
Brent Zundel: Hmm.
Brent Zundel: Another option moving forward or for moving forward
Brent Zundel: is to
Brent Zundel: close all of these pr's without merging, and simply begin the work,
Brent Zundel: as has been described and defined.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: You're referring to the
Aleksandr Petrosyan: for the present uh given that the has joined us.
Hart Montgomery: I hard. Uh, hey? Yeah, sorry. And I have to drop soon. And unfortunately, too, I have like
Hart Montgomery: triple booked
Hart Montgomery: um. The roadmap is Basically, the same as before. Right. Is there any? Are there any substantial changes?
Aleksandr Petrosyan: We Well,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: not specifically. It's just the people that points. Is um.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: We factor it from
Aleksandr Petrosyan: one big library, with lots of features into
Aleksandr Petrosyan: smaller libraries and a wrapping library which combines them.
Hart Montgomery: Um, that's fantastic.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um, that's a our handling library. Um called me yet,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: which can give very nice looking at our reports if you uh look it up on Docs Alask. It has fantastic looking at the messages
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um! With good practices as well to explain to the person who is seeing what they should do about it.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um, we're in process of moving, you know, to the library.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um, so far as being a smooth, open replacement.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: yes,
Hart Montgomery: yeah. Is. Do you have this written down anywhere? I I can assume you do. That's a rhetorical question. Can you send me the link
Aleksandr Petrosyan: to the uh
Hart Montgomery: to whatever you down on the roadmap? Yeah,
Hart Montgomery: that'd be fantastic.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Okay, Good. Um, i'll send it via this quote: Right?
Hart Montgomery: Yeah. Just courts Great:
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Yeah, Good.
Hart Montgomery: Um, I do have to drop, unfortunately. But yeah, everyone if you need me for anything, you know. Just mail me um. Always happy to talk, always happy to mail, so I I apologize for having to drop. But
Hart Montgomery: Um, Also, Is there an Aries meeting, or something that conflicts with this time,
Hart Montgomery: Brett? Do you know
Brent Zundel: I am speaking well muted? Um, I do not know. It's possible.
Hart Montgomery: Okay, because Steven posted in chat that he's, hey? I'd love to join the meeting, but I can't.
Um.
Hart Montgomery: So maybe we like rotate or adjust the meeting time, so we can get those guys to attend.
Hart Montgomery: I'll reach out, and i'll try to start out a threat on this if that's okay with everybody.
Hart Montgomery: So it's all good.
Brent Zundel: Yeah, that's fine. Thank you.
Hart Montgomery: All right. I unfortunately do have to drop so sorry about that. Thank you all, and let me know if you need anything.
Okay,
Bye, bye,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: that was.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: It was a quick enough. Um! We have some good news,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: I think
Aleksandr Petrosyan: two hundred and three is,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: except for a few right, except for a few conflicts, it should be fine
Aleksandr Petrosyan: just doesn't say which which are those conflicts?
Brent Zundel: Right? That's the
Brent Zundel: that is the challenge. I and I can't just jump in and do it for him. This is the what we've run around and run into with this since August.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um! I don't quite understand why that's the case with us about
Aleksandr Petrosyan: um. Maybe it's the post protection. This is causing problems. But, um,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: as far as we can, we require a few things to be met.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um specifically the um,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: like almost all um big open source projects we require re based on a much workflow.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um. We have a guideline on commits, so what should be a separate commit which should be just? Um amended into the previous one,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and on instant fix up as well. Dco: obviously,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and a few things pertaining to that.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: If you are opening a pull request
Aleksandr Petrosyan: from a personal fork, and you're a new contributor.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um, you should expect um to be available for. Uh
Aleksandr Petrosyan: addressing the code review questions,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: if there are any, and if you don't respond within a month, then we just close the pull request automatically.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: I would imagine if that was the case with us, so there would be no requests but
Aleksandr Petrosyan: um.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: But aside from that there's also another thing which we practice, which is, if you
Aleksandr Petrosyan: ah, shall we say a person who contributes frequently?
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um, you're doing these either via um feature branches to which you have unprotected access. So anyone else can
Aleksandr Petrosyan: do those changes if they need to. And if you're using personal forks, which is
Aleksandr Petrosyan: as far as in the standard we've been hyper manager. Um, you are supposed to add, have? Well, at least the current code owners has collaborators.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: So if people need to get your pull request in quickly. They can do that.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: i'm not sure that um you well given what you've said. You can do that with Cam. But you can definitely ask Michael to do that.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Do you think that could work?
Brent Zundel: Uh, yeah, with Mike's definitely,
Brent Zundel: I mean, i'm willing to try to reach out to cam again.
Brent Zundel: But
Aleksandr Petrosyan: we've been trying to do the same thing.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: And since around you
Aleksandr Petrosyan: this is actually why we here um, we,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and
Aleksandr Petrosyan: it
Aleksandr Petrosyan: didn't seem like anything was happening with Github, so
Aleksandr Petrosyan: got a little worried. We got in touch with Brian. He
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and the code base is nice um plus contributing to a cryptographic library something everyone wants to.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: So
Aleksandr Petrosyan: yeah,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: I decided, we try to help.
Brent Zundel: I think we've gone
Brent Zundel: as far as we can on the Prs today.
Brent Zundel: Um! I'll reach out to cam
Brent Zundel: uh what's more, about
Brent Zundel: two hundred and three.
Brent Zundel: See if he's willing to
Brent Zundel: do the first conflicts.
Brent Zundel: I can also reach out to Mike.
Brent Zundel: Uh, and with that i'd like to move to issues unless folks have
Brent Zundel: concerns about that direction.
All right,
Brent Zundel: posting a link to the issues in the order that i'm going to go through them.
Brent Zundel: Um!
Brent Zundel: What I would like
Brent Zundel: us to focus on as a conversation is
Brent Zundel: um,
Brent Zundel: and whether we're going to do anything about it, versus whether or not
Brent Zundel: um
Brent Zundel: versus solutioning or trying to solve the solve the issue. So
Brent Zundel: beginning with issue one hundred and thirty-one
Brent Zundel: uh playing around with this library tried to build in portable mode.
Brent Zundel: Um
Brent Zundel: compiling, according to the directions. Cargo fails,
Brent Zundel: Mike responded. A couple of years ago. We need to update the documentation,
Brent Zundel: and then gives
Brent Zundel: a command that theoretically would work no response from the poster
Brent Zundel: uh thoughts, opinions. What if anything, should we do about this issue.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Update documentation.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um. Also make sure that it works because this was posted on July the ninth of two thousand and twenty.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: So let's make sure that we have a working solution.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: That should be easy. Then we should
Aleksandr Petrosyan: updated documentation and so on.
Brent Zundel: All right. I'll put a note in the issue.
Brent Zundel: Uh, is there anyone who would be willing to be assigned to this issue to bring it toward completion, which would include testing the posted solution? Make sure it works, and then updating the documentation with that solution.
Victor Gridnevsky: At least, I would like to help with the documentation, and I will try to do the tests.
Victor Gridnevsky: Listen to me
Brent Zundel: right, Victor. What is your github handle?
Victor Gridnevsky: One moment. I'm gonna send the link as well.
Brent Zundel: I have you uh attached uh assigned to the issue.
Victor Gridnevsky: Yes, yes, correct.
Brent Zundel: All right. Next one
Brent Zundel: uh feature this is issue one hundred and thirty-nine.
Brent Zundel: Um.
Brent Zundel: Now that we have a seek hullable library interface two years ago. How about we go? Step further with help of go, see, go to pride a go laying one. I think that this issue is
Brent Zundel: remarkably stale, considering that we have an sa go library now, or it's a wrapper.
Brent Zundel: Um, so
Brent Zundel: i'm going to close it with a comment to that effect, unless someone feels otherwise
right.
Brent Zundel: I will do that
Brent Zundel: after the meetings we don't have to take time. Now,
Brent Zundel: next one is number one.
Brent Zundel: Forty-eight change log is out of date
Brent Zundel: as part of Cii badging we need. We do claim to have a change log. Seems we're forgetting to update it.
Brent Zundel: Um! So this is more documentation.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um, I'd probably add to this.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Why are you not generating the change log automatically?
Aleksandr Petrosyan: So
Aleksandr Petrosyan: uh to some extent? Um, if we are to? Or shall we say? Take over the development? Um.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: The commits format standard is such that you could generate the change log based of the of of just the commit history.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um! There will be an older change one which will stay um just to it You get appended an extra
Aleksandr Petrosyan: instead of changes.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um! You could also host Two change locks, one for the version before the
Aleksandr Petrosyan: I don't want to say hostile, but
Aleksandr Petrosyan: the change to the commit standard,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and the one after which is automatically generated.
Brent Zundel: I agree that as a path forward that sounds fantastic.
Brent Zundel: Um!
Brent Zundel: Is there someone willing to be assigned to that task to make it happen.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um, i'd like to
Brent Zundel: alright, I have assigned you to the issue.
Okay,
Brent Zundel: you
Brent Zundel: alright, next issue
Brent Zundel: um
Brent Zundel: as of July the twenty second, two thousand and twenty.
This is
Brent Zundel: It's the roadmap.
Brent Zundel: Um. I would encourage folks to
Brent Zundel: follow that link
Brent Zundel: um,
Brent Zundel: and see if the list of to do their
Brent Zundel: make any sense at all, considering what folks are currently and want to do with the
Brent Zundel: that folks are like, I can share my screen.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Yes, please
Brent Zundel: problem
Brent Zundel: alright,
Brent Zundel: versa roadmap
Brent Zundel: as hub two years ago.
Brent Zundel: Current features.
Brent Zundel: There's some signatures.
Brent Zundel: We have some key. Exchange,
Brent Zundel: a bit of encryption
Brent Zundel: and the cks which is essentially the an on-premise code
Brent Zundel: and some superior secret sharing.
Brent Zundel: There is a little of Z next library
Brent Zundel: which is separate from live versa, for historical reasons, that, in my opinion, are No, no one or pertinent.
Brent Zundel: I think we've talked about that
Brent Zundel: which has Bvs plus fontable, Sanders some bulletproofs code,
Brent Zundel: along with some verifiable encryption and delegateable signatures
Brent Zundel: the to do list
Brent Zundel: as a couple of years ago includes these things,
Brent Zundel: adding a depth secret, sharing,
Brent Zundel: improving the
Brent Zundel: according to the Rfc.
Brent Zundel: Adjusting the Bls curve so that it meets the spec
Brent Zundel: with a change from the Ncl. To the parenting plus library,
Brent Zundel: introducing a threshold Bls signature,
Brent Zundel: and then changing to a subsequent model
Brent Zundel: which is in line with, but probably not exactly the same thing as
Brent Zundel: um
Brent Zundel: the
Brent Zundel: precisely what we want to do.
Brent Zundel: Right We it so it's. It's been a twinkle in our eyes for a very long time, literally when you came to the meeting and said, This is what we want to do.
Brent Zundel: We're not having to bend over backwards to get to agree with. We want that to happen to
Brent Zundel: um. It seems a much better architecture.
Brent Zundel: Um.
Brent Zundel: Separation of the Cl. Rsa. And Cks
um,
Brent Zundel: as well as some fresh signatures, some more accumulator work
Brent Zundel: was very interesting at the time.
Brent Zundel: I know that some of that has happened independent of.
Brent Zundel: And I've actually been talking with
Brent Zundel: Mike to talk to you about getting it into.
Brent Zundel: I don't know if that will happen
Brent Zundel: um as well as these are other crypto things happening elsewhere that
Brent Zundel: we thought would be cool to be in
Brent Zundel: um privacy pass integrations.
Brent Zundel: Um different hashing algorithms.
Brent Zundel: Um. These are the roughly the sub crates that we had
Brent Zundel: broken things into along with the compile targets that we wanted to aim for.
Brent Zundel: Um, all of which is, of course
Brent Zundel: up for
Brent Zundel: for the conversation.
Brent Zundel: So as of two years ago, this was roughly roadmap.
Brent Zundel: Um. The question
Brent Zundel: for us today is,
Brent Zundel: does it make sense to keep this issue open with this roadmap,
Brent Zundel: or recognize that
Brent Zundel: we
Brent Zundel: have
Brent Zundel: a similar more up to date.
Brent Zundel: And perhaps at this point we should just close this issue.
Brent Zundel: But
Brent Zundel: we're referring to which issue specifically,
Brent Zundel: it says, here's our roadmap. Let's do it.
Brent Zundel: Um. I think that there are laudable things on that roadmap,
Brent Zundel: but It is two years old,
Brent Zundel: and in light of the conversations we've had more recently, though some of it is. I don't personally feel like it makes sense to modify this old roadmap.
Brent Zundel: I'd rather just close this issue and say, here's the new roadmap.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: I wouldn't go so far as that. Um,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: I think we can just rearrange
Aleksandr Petrosyan: the stuff inside of the Ford road map and fix that
Aleksandr Petrosyan: like um.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: One thing that you couldn't have accounted for is the fact that some of the libraries that you relied on were deprecated.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Those could just easily be added as a separate bullet point.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um! As for the upgrade model, this is what we want as well
Aleksandr Petrosyan: will simplify everyone's life. It stays the remainder. Zero knowledge proofs the decoupling.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: It might happen accidentally
Aleksandr Petrosyan: in a sense that sometimes, if you think about the data flow, you just realize that you have to either
Aleksandr Petrosyan: drawing the line in the wrong place.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: The improvements which um will need to be implemented eventually need to be implemented otherwise. Um as a office uh
Aleksandr Petrosyan: less reliable
Aleksandr Petrosyan: key exchange signatures, et cetera.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: I'm. Not
Aleksandr Petrosyan: one. Her essential whether they will be on top priority. Given that we,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: then we have that much of a reliance on the reliability of us that we needed to be economic first
Aleksandr Petrosyan: to improve.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um. It is quite possible that we will have time to implement it as well,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: just
Aleksandr Petrosyan: maybe not in the near future.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Keeping it in a roadmap is fine, just adjusting it slightly, so that it
Aleksandr Petrosyan: well, it's a lack of a better word.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Adjusting it slightly is what I would do. I wouldn't necessarily close the room up and do a new one.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: The things that have uh uh make perfect sense to me, and the fact that the roadmap has been there for two years. Doesn't matter that much in the grand ski of things.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: What matters is that there is progress on it
leading the issue open.
Brent Zundel: Okay,
Brent Zundel: Um. Next steps that I see the roadmap needs to be
Brent Zundel: um
Brent Zundel: updated and slightly adjusted.
Brent Zundel: Is there someone willing to be assigned to that pass?
Victor Gridnevsky: So will I be off.
Victor Gridnevsky: So if so,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: No, this is
Brent Zundel: alright. You. Next is
Brent Zundel: first of many things that we need to fix.
Brent Zundel: Issue number one hundred and sixty seven.
Brent Zundel: I'll just keep sharing my screen. That makes sense.
Brent Zundel: Um! While the license file is accurate, each source file is required to start with a license banner.
Brent Zundel: And so
Brent Zundel: this is just one of those things that is,
hey,
Brent Zundel: manual task, I think, at this point,
Brent Zundel: unless anyone knows of an automated way to.
Victor Gridnevsky: No, I can, as i'm with python.
Victor Gridnevsky: It's just
Brent Zundel: as as far as I understand it.
Brent Zundel: So, Victor, are you willing to be assigned to this one? Yes, yes,
Victor Gridnevsky: okay.
Victor Gridnevsky: Six hundred and one. D
Brent Zundel: it's our one two.
Victor Gridnevsky: Yes, yes, yes,
Brent Zundel: excellent.
Hmm.
Brent Zundel: Um. So
Brent Zundel: as far as I understand it.
Brent Zundel: One hundred and fifty-two
Brent Zundel: um
Brent Zundel: is an issue that outlines a more specific
Brent Zundel: uh step toward the roadmap,
Brent Zundel: and proposes
Brent Zundel: the substructures under the main or so library.
Brent Zundel: Um,
Brent Zundel: So it would be a top-level project.
Brent Zundel: And this is
Brent Zundel: this is the the conversation is Is this still makes sense as a project organizational structure
Aleksandr Petrosyan: as a baseline? Yes, i'll be making adjustments,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and um
Aleksandr Petrosyan: no English start point and
Aleksandr Petrosyan: referencing it and saying, Why, this is different.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um! He's actually good for prices as well.
Brent Zundel: All right. So, in addition to adjusting or following, adjusting and updating the proposed structure,
Brent Zundel: is there anything that needs to happen before
Brent Zundel: changing the
Brent Zundel: So here's my question.
Brent Zundel: My understanding is that with this or with the adjusted vision,
Brent Zundel: um as a guideline,
Brent Zundel: as the work proceeds to
Brent Zundel: break versa up into smaller crates.
Brent Zundel: Um,
Brent Zundel: This is essentially listing the crates that we want Ursa broken up into. Is that correct?
Aleksandr Petrosyan: To an extent? Yes.
Brent Zundel: So as that work happens, this will follow as a natural result,
Brent Zundel: so it wouldn't make sense to just arbitrarily move a bunch of code just to get the structure we're going to get the structure eventually is that
Brent Zundel: makes sense.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: There's also a few less than obvious problems that might occur. Um, Ross dependency. Resolution is a strict direct to cyclic
Aleksandr Petrosyan: meaning that you can't have cyclic dependencies right? Some things that you would have considered a single crate because of a cross-create coupling um has to be broken down into smaller chunks.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: In most cases what you're supposed to be doing is, you are supposed to look at the coupling between functions and between features,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and consider splitting them off into
Aleksandr Petrosyan: chunks that are as large as they can be without becoming completely monolithic,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and which will allow you to split off some functionality.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Let's do retain the core so normally. What this would result in is having a little bit of extra code
Aleksandr Petrosyan: if you,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: this might affect Debug builds, and this might give us a headache because we have a lot of dependencies and more than a static link. But if you're worried about the deploy size, this is completely relevant, because
Aleksandr Petrosyan: any realistic deployment we have,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and enable to full fat, probably with translation.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Uh no, I think Code Jen units set to one, meaning that it's full that Lt. Over the entire library that we any kind of unused code is being killed.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um!
Aleksandr Petrosyan: That is the content that's needing adjustment. The third bit that I would recommend focusing on
Aleksandr Petrosyan: is to
Aleksandr Petrosyan: consider a gradual
Aleksandr Petrosyan: split,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: because, while I agree that
Aleksandr Petrosyan: giving it a upgrade model is important. What is more important is reducing the feature zoom
Aleksandr Petrosyan: to something that is more manageable.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um!
Aleksandr Petrosyan: These features have unintended consequences if they are used in a multi crate workspace. So if you have us enabled with one set of features, and we have us enabled another set of features. You didn't know how much code you being
Aleksandr Petrosyan: you're compiling in most cases, if you don't have all here enabled, you can end up with the same library being generated four or five times in case of a So this is, uh, quite a bit of overhead. It's a hundred megabytes each,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and those are statically linked to the Excuse me so if you don't have Altru,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: you can overflow any
Aleksandr Petrosyan: any Github Ci action, or something like that.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: So I would say. Third point would be to reduce the number of features first, and then compartmentalize it into crates.
Brent Zundel: So would that work better as a two
Brent Zundel: reduce the feature set,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: perhaps as a one. Actually
Brent Zundel: okay,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: because it just is going to happen.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Naturally.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um
Aleksandr Petrosyan: release feature set. Let let's paraphrase it. Um: reduce conditional compilation.
Brent Zundel: Yeah, that's a better way of doing anything.
Brent Zundel: Okay,
Brent Zundel: All right. Good. On next steps.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Okay, I'm:
Brent Zundel: right as far as the sign that goes. Is this: you, Alexander?
Yeah,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: not your choice.
Brent Zundel: All right. We have time for at least one more.
Brent Zundel: Um,
Brent Zundel: then, Middleton,
Brent Zundel: Is it expressing concern about
Brent Zundel: uh the bullet proofs? Module
Brent Zundel: um
Brent Zundel: Yes.
Brent Zundel: Does have some problems.
Brent Zundel: Um,
Brent Zundel: and as far as we're aware,
Brent Zundel: no one is currently using it.
Brent Zundel: Um. My last suggestion, more than a year ago was
Brent Zundel: maybe label it as experimental or
Brent Zundel: no.
Brent Zundel: Really introduce the idea of an experimental flag into
Brent Zundel: um. But the real problem with bulletproofs is that it was
Brent Zundel: rewritten here
Brent Zundel: as a copy of code in Dallic, but is not actually linked to Dolly, and so none of the none of the updates and changes and improvements that are happening there are possible to just easily integrate here.
Brent Zundel: Um!
Brent Zundel: And so it's. It's
Brent Zundel: as it exists, difficult to maintain.
Brent Zundel: Um.
Brent Zundel: And so this
Brent Zundel: on the table is, Do we keep bullet proofs as a capability in Ursa? If so, how do we make sure it is done safely and properly?
Brent Zundel: Love to hear
Brent Zundel: comments from folks on this one.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: What about just remaining them? As Dc. Middle, suggested
Brent Zundel: I, totally on the table.
Brent Zundel: Um,
Brent Zundel: and like I said, I don't know of anybody who is using bulletproofs.
Brent Zundel: Um! The The library that exists in our. So I know people who are using both.
Brent Zundel: Um:
Aleksandr Petrosyan: So my understanding of the issue is as follows:
Aleksandr Petrosyan: This is code that is
Aleksandr Petrosyan: basically a rewrite of a popular library,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: except that library has been updated in our code wasn't
Aleksandr Petrosyan: mit ctl, and so we'll be held to the same standards, and the obvious things that they have fixed, and we haven't, and then we consider the marriage to It's better to not have a feature, but to have it badly. One hundred and fifty.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um! That doesn't mean that we won't have this feature. Um. One thing we could do is it could still be linked uh given that the copyright issue, and the licensing issue was remedied.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um! If they weren't remedied, then it is possible that people might be able to use both if they need to,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: but given that at some point we might,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: wants to re-implement it.
The only condition under which it might be a good idea. Is. If
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um!
Aleksandr Petrosyan: The people who have implemented it have have a portion of time that they can dedicate to.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: In other words,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: it is possible that we would be able to maintain it,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: provided that we were the original offers. And there's a good reason why it's held under a different license. In which case why is it part of us. And why isn't it a separate
Aleksandr Petrosyan: like, if the only difference is that it is like Dominic, except it
Aleksandr Petrosyan: has a different license. This is the whole point of open source you can create uh, an alternative which has a different license, like like with gtk and cute,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and you can do a license something as well. So if you need be, the best solution might be to just contact that I can ask them. Can you provide it in the a different license, so that we can use it as well.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: It's as far as I know It's a missing license, anyway.
Brent Zundel: Yeah, that's my understanding.
Brent Zundel: I so
Brent Zundel: the the primary difference between
Brent Zundel: dialect bullet proofs and ers of bullet proofs is the underlying curve.
Brent Zundel: Um,
Brent Zundel: As far as I understand it, the dallic bullet proofs is built on top of riskredo, two hundred and fifty five,
Brent Zundel: and
Brent Zundel: the bullet proofs in Ersa, I believe, is built on thels twelve hundred and eighty-one,
Brent Zundel: which is Why, yes,
Brent Zundel: you know, branching
Brent Zundel: uh for linking to the Dollar Library
Brent Zundel: Wasn't a solution for bringing
Brent Zundel: pull it proofs capabilities into.
Brent Zundel: You know the space of bbs, and the other curves that are
Brent Zundel: no
Brent Zundel: the other sorry pbs, plus the other signatures that are built on top of bls, twelve thousand three hundred and eighty-one.
Brent Zundel: Um! So that was the original intent was, Hey, we want bullet proofs. We want it to interact with bbs and that's, one thousand two hundred and thirty-one, so we need bullet proofs on top of twelve hundred and eighty-one um! And so Gallic was
Brent Zundel: copied
Brent Zundel: but with a change of the underlying curve,
Brent Zundel: so that's just a little bit more insight into why this came up in the first place,
Brent Zundel: to my knowledge, it's still not. Nobody's using it.
Brent Zundel: Um!
Brent Zundel: And it is in that nearly unmaintainable state because the original implementer
Brent Zundel: uh leash has not been
Brent Zundel: around for a very long time.
Brent Zundel: Um:
And
Brent Zundel: yeah, yeah. So
Brent Zundel: with with that new information.
Brent Zundel: Uh? Do folks feel like closing it or
Brent Zundel: removing the bullet Cruise Code is best, or
some other tactic,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and they might have some use for it. Um! It might actually be a good idea to consider, also contributing
Aleksandr Petrosyan: that different implementation to Doming,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: so removing them from Nasa. Um.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Still, in my opinion is the best course of
Aleksandr Petrosyan: um. An additional action for the
Aleksandr Petrosyan: um benefits of the entire open source ecosystem, and for us, libraries and specifically
Aleksandr Petrosyan: um would be to consider taking the code that we just thrown away
Aleksandr Petrosyan: and contributing it in a form that is usable inside of Dallas.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: It is inspired by their work, and
Aleksandr Petrosyan: well assuming that they haven't implemented something like that.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um, it might be useful.
Um,
Aleksandr Petrosyan: if they have
Aleksandr Petrosyan: the thes Curve family. Of course they don't
Aleksandr Petrosyan: might be problematic, but still
Aleksandr Petrosyan: having that functionality, either as a separate crate
Aleksandr Petrosyan: like us uh underscore this, and have it be hosted in the completely separate repository which has completely separate maintainers.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: Um having it an optional
Aleksandr Petrosyan: might be the best course in action.
Brent Zundel: All right. Um
Brent Zundel: it to that effect.
Brent Zundel: Um!
Brent Zundel: This is a bit heavier of an issue to be assigned. But is there anyone who is willing at this point to be assigned to this issue which would be first and foremost uh removing bullet proof from Ersa, and secondarily um looking into the possibility of
Brent Zundel: cleaning that up and contributing it back to the Dalek Library.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: I'm. Afraid i'm um at capacity at this point.
Aleksandr Petrosyan: So
Brent Zundel: alright, then we will leave this as it is. Um, thank you all for being here. Um, I don't we haven't had this productive in ours a meeting in a long time.
Brent Zundel: Um!
Brent Zundel: Uh, I will.
Brent Zundel: I will do my best to make sure that I am here and make this meeting a priority moving forward. Um!
Brent Zundel: So that we can continue this sort of uh
Brent Zundel: forward progress.
Brent Zundel: Um! I would also propose that we keep the format of the meeting roughly. The same. Begin with looking at pull requests. Um!
Brent Zundel: See what we can merge. See what issues we can close as a result, and then continuing to triage and process issues.
Brent Zundel: Uh, with that uh, we are at time and
Brent Zundel: again Thank you all for being here
Victor Gridnevsky: likewise. Thank you.
Dmitri Venger: Thank you very much. I guess. You guys Thank you.