I just want
Hi.
I just wanted to let you know because I need to unfortunately travel while being on this call Rose was kind enough to
Decided to run the call. So she will be facilitating the call if that's okay with everybody.
We're probably not. Yeah.
Let's give people about two more minutes to join.
Hi, I just hopped on its Bobby
And
Now,
Hello this is row Sherman
From bright red joining
It's probably
Oh no, it's not me.
Because I hear the noise is
OK, we have
15 participants, I suggest we
Started
So let me
Start with saying that
This meeting this subject and it's antitrust policy, which means that none of the information that is shared during the meeting should be in any way.
In any way.
Well you you should be given the opportunity to comment on the development of any requirements. Regardless, which whether they are member
Your members of Linux Foundation or
Not
You
And
If you have any questions I've asked you, or legal advisor.
Or us
Or email Linux Foundation. If you are a member of Linux Foundation and then next foundation to anti drug policy can be found at dub.
dub dot dot
org slash anti trust.
With that it was a quick reminder of the anti trust policy.
I suggest we moved to
The next point, which is
Roses.
Summary of the pole.
Great I thanks
Also, just quickly checking for sound quality.
I haven't air con on which may or may not interfere
With the noise is this a clear connection for everybody.
Yeah.
Yes, we're all fine.
Okay, great.
Anyway, wonderful. So, good day to everybody, and thank you to all who
Participated in the creation, the
Organization of the admin and then of course the
Filling in of the survey we
Have
So far,
respondents who have come in. Actually, I take that back. We have 10
respondents who have filled in their surveys. So if you haven't filled one. And yet, and would like
To welcome you to
Please go in and add to that that said it's a very good beginning to get an idea of the group. What we're going to focus on, there's a lot of information in it.
So rather than drone on about it, I think.
What we're going to
Would be best.
But people can feedback in if they would like a different idea.
Is first
Just do a quick overview of
The types of profiles of people, very briefly, who are in this group, just so we started to get a sense. I'm redacting names and affiliations, unless you want me to actually
Tell names and affiliations. So actually, this would be a great moment, which way would you
Like to go forward.
And similarly,
For the version of the results that are going to be distributed. Would you rather be redacted version or one with names and affiliations and people could chime in, about what the right way forward is on that this would be the best moment to do it.
Please know that
They
Will
Then we
Can go through with
I think that's
It's
Not you probably needs to do that either at a bad connection or her computer is struggling with she's
Voice
Can understand anything you're saying Marta.
Talking it's it's really bad.
Maybe
He is there a chat feature.
Yes.
Ah,
Sadly, that was sadly Bartow. We can't hear you anymore.
Okay.
Hello, we can
We can
Really hear you.
I'm going to check back tomorrow.
Okay. Mark just into everyone
Names for privacy.
Protection. Okay.
I will defer to Marta.
Okay.
Martha has chatting to the
Hell, we can't
Hear me
Fairly
Yes.
March. Unfortunately we can't hear you, though, but we did
I did see your chat that
We should keep the names removed for privacy protection. So we will we will defer to that. All right.
Okay.
All right.
I think that's what we will decide to do
Okay. So going back to the debrief on it. There's, there's a lot of content in here and i think it's it's potentially worth
Doing just to brief summary, but I'd be very interested to collaborate with anyone who'd like to do a little bit more
rigorous analysis of the results and perhaps present them in a more rigorous way. So it would be great if anybody would be interested to collaborate together and that for sharing with the group.
But I can give a quick debrief on the profiles of who's responded, as well as perhaps just jump directly to
Global Forum.
Because it is the one thing that has a really pretty closed and pending timeline on it.
Then we can pause and see where we're at and see if we want to work back into other priorities of the group or just pause on that for the moment and focus on the thing with the tight timeline for this week. What does everyone think
Hi it's Bobby. I think that's a great idea. Since the form is coming up so quickly.
Okay. Anyone else have been a different opinion. I guess I'll try the going once, going twice.
Okay.
All right, so we'll start with that. And again, just reiterating that the, the results are pretty much in a raw form at the moment and would really benefit from I think a more formal
Not terribly difficult but formal analysis in the spirit of it being a collective here if anybody would like to jump in at this phase to work on it, something over the next week to make it a bit of a smoother presentation that we could have
You know, not just raw information form, this would be a great time to jump in about that anytime on the call, but
Now it but I
Rose, I can because if the survey is still alive and people are going to still be putting in their information.
I can do that in some type of newsletter real quick to just like keep up with. How many people are answering and the gist of it and you and I can work together on that during the week to get something so that people can just like look at the results.
Okay, that sounds great.
Okay Okay super. Alright, so a quick summary from the general of why and why are people here. And also, Bobby. If you want to present any of this, we can always switch and you could present part of the the raw information as well. It's really a collective group effort here.
No, go ahead. You're fine. Okay.
So in terms of the general area we've got
A mix of people, but many of them have actually done project work with hyper ledger.
So, for example, and current project, which I think is most interesting of our like, who are we working with here. There's a lot. There's a number of proof of concepts and pilot applications built
Another one has done multiple projects at different stages will. Another one is exploring hyper ledger fabric quilt in Indy. Another one's completed one project and went to production, and it's doing a few more proof of concepts.
There's a developer even early stage fabric prototype and then
An internal online shop based on fabric composer used in production, and they're creating an offer for a public sector entity do create management and then there's myself.
Which is a little bit different. We actually translate between complex multi stakeholder situations so we we don't build we we help specify and make sure that all types of entities are
Represented so that the product does what it needs for operations, but mostly it seems almost everyone involved to your has at least a proof of concept, if not a full fledged project at multiple stage going on in terms of resources.
We're
Peer Learning is coming up use cases and policy.
Documentation keeping it up to date and technical support so its a mix of things in terms of the sorts of resources.
But they the collaboration and use cases and exchange keeps coming up over and over again. So it seems that in terms of the focus areas, there's interest across all of them.
And while the focus areas are very interesting today in the interest of time, like we discussed earlier, let's just jump to the global forum.
And that will also
Merged into Dr. Moon years presentation. So in terms of the interest in the forum. We have 1234567 potential attendees who are interested
Of which 12345 are willing and interested to actually contribute at the forum.
There's a greater number. I would say 123456789 who would be quite interested to contribute remotely. So this seems to be that there's there's broad interest almost universal in building out some offering or two for the upcoming forum.
In terms of topics. I think we're going to have to work as a group, because we have a wildly diverse extremely interested and a very high appetite for most every topic I
Mean, almost all topics listed on the technical side had at least somebody interested and a majority of them had out of 11 respondents
Are 10 1011 respondents at least four four to five is trending and pretty average, the ones that had a bit more. We're smart contracts with seven and best practices, which also had seven. So, and let's say six on interface. So of all of those. Those are the ones with a slight bit more interest.
In terms of operations, again, a wildly interesting group here that
Found much of the topics quite interesting.
Almost everybody wanted and use your case studies. Almost everyone wanted role of government, as well as governance of
Economics of using blockchain use cases, again, very popular and then
Scattering but still strong on healthcare social impact and initiatives are cases for blocks. So it's pieces and use cases. I think pretty much the same. So we're seeing a lot of cluster in use cases and the role of government and governance. So I think that if we're going to do a second
Broader offering for the forum on top of the
extraordinary efforts at smart to
Buy
It would be
A use case or role of government type of thing or a
technical topic in which
Those who are better place to contribute should to look for direction because there seems to be broad interest across the board. I'm going to pause here because that's enough information, I think, to get a conversation going over
Well, new form. So you them. And when we look at it. This is what he is when he's
Been on there are two kinds of
Participation that we can have
One is more of a presentation on our forum and then
The other was conducting a detailed workshop and the President was a demo.
So,
And initially, when you're looking at it. The focus was
All the way this initial in the email that I sent it probably we're looking at
A presentation.
Actually, most of the content will be coming. And so the very first question is that how do we want to kind of
What format to be participating
On one solution is given the diversity of people involved.
To kind of come up with the kennels
Should that we can have a more of a panel discussion between like people
That would be one suggestion or coming up with the format.
Unless we want. We have increased in that running a workshop in that workshop would certainly be, how could come up with
Use cases and as a blockchain. So when you have typical way of innovation in growing design thinking. But when you talk about blockchain. You have to take a bit of a different approach. And maybe that could be a collaborative workshop which is a much longer.
Matt, you present first and then you go into breakout sessions. So the very first question is what format will we want to participate in
While others think this is rose again I'm going to chime in and and raise
A variant on
On Dr Munoz question which is might be
Interested perhaps
In proposing.
To sessions.
To keep under consideration is a
Doctor Monier has a very
Comprehensive
uzel for a presentation.
Heavily showcases
The work of his team, which I think will be personally
Extremely interesting and
Very valuable.
To the extent that it might be difficult. And I'd be interested. Dr moody and your thoughts for uninvolved parties who are part of the work group to really be able to contribute to that as its as its a contained
Top actually write to me or interpreters, basically it was going towards that direction, but I tried to kind of restraint it because the way I was trying to put forward was
That the first talk about what our government use cases. What are the pains in government that can be solved by a blockchain. What does blockchain bring to the table when we talk about government transformation.
And just to kind of give some weighted based on the work that has already being done. I said, Let's bring one case that the and the case study could be the device yesterday. So the way I was trying to write this proposal was
That most of the presentation should be around.
How to go about identifying candidate use cases blockchain and add value.
What could be those use cases and then a case study. So that's what, that's how I was doing it because otherwise, if I would have just wonder the case study. Then there was kind of as you were saying it was just
Waiting
And this is Leonard high if one
I am very happy. You said that Dr minia because literally you are showcase and
As I think we all agree very
complete set of pain points and lessons learned from your great
Initiative.
And I think everyone will be
Very interested in that because it provides invaluable information to anyone who presents who
Who is pleasant at at the Forum. So thanks for saying so.
On the other side, as it always is saying, I think that is enough for content that can come out in this form, we can consider having more than one essentially
I was really keen, maybe because of the diversity that we have in the girl who have
Panel topic without again.
Presentation topic.
Yes, I think as well said if we can accommodate two sessions, of course, absolutely. We can certainly cover a lot more material.
Addition get more lessons learned from
Other interesting, interested parties. So yeah, if we do have the time. Let's look to see if that's going to be a successful format for this.
While others gathered their thoughts.
This is Rose here.
I still think that that might be a sensible thing.
To do rather than
constrain the amount of time available to really properly.
Showcase
Smart Dubai's
Just because we're sitting in on the fascinating.
Presentation from our last call that easily could encompass presentation slot amply, you know, and really still just scratch the surface and it would be a shame to deprive the audience of
Really having that opportunity to understand this.
Comprehensive internal linking project because we're trying to achieve too many things in one session when we could
Consider
breaking it into two that have different functions. And then we have a bit more breathing room. But what to others think
Any other inputs here.
So just to be clear, this is regarding a session.
The upcoming global forum.
Hyper ledger.
Yeah, yeah. So this is. Yeah. So if
For those who completed the survey. It was the third major section of the survey and it's been brought up before Marta introduce this early on that there
Is Global Forum coming up in December.
Right, right, right.
And the due date for proposals is, I believe, I want to say like the
1313 yes
If we wish to
Propose
A
You know, anything we really need
To decide now.
And then get on it next week.
So,
Today is the day to decide what we'd like to do anything in addition to
The presentation suggestion, and if so,
What would that look like a panel is when idea that would require panelist, and also require a write up of what this would involve so over to everyone.
Yeah, I mean I was gonna suggest if I was thinking, if it is in this
Context.
You might also
plan on doing a workshop or an unconference
Both for after the Global Forum. If everyone's traveling to the same place.
If there's not necessarily room somehow in the agenda for the conference at least people that have
This similar interests that have traveled all that week.
Get together.
Yeah, that's a great idea. And actually a workshop
Or in conference.
Oh, sorry doctrine, but here is
An external
Yeah yeah it's acceptable to we could actually
Proposed that brand have it in the actual the actual agenda of the forum.
So, but the question here is, of course, this isn't working group made
Up of people with interests. This today would be the last feasible moment to come together around any of these ideas. So this is the moment to step forward.
And
Start making a plan if we'd like.
To make one
Yeah. And I think, again, I think that the workshops of natives propose can be initially built around the predominant areas of interest, we've we've basically
glean from the survey that that and yet completion, so we could start using the highest nominated devoted
Categories and see how we can flesh it out to provide interesting workshops for that second session to give us a good stop.
Yeah, I just want to note that this, this group, kind of like the healthcare group is different than other groups in Hyper ledger, in the sense that it's coming from subject matter expertise.
As opposed to coming from a technical community with an open source project.
And you know ultimately the goal of hyper ledger projects is to produce code so
There's a particular challenge for a group that starting from subject matter expertise in terms of finding out where to start.
So,
It's not uncommon.
Something on this the way I understood the description of what a workshop
It changed the nature is that it is led by some people were you are willing to engage the audience of the workshop and then go into breakout sessions.
That is how it has because it is defined in the, you know, in the template shake that is the case.
May be interesting works up could be that
We can a
Different players who have been involved in locking you
Come and discuss the kinds of challenges or digital transformation that Washington song.
And then I do read about a lot of how we can do design thinking sort of blockchain concept with first you kind of build the network and the network constraints.
And then you come out me though you know he can go through the design thinking is given the time that is available in the workshop
It may make sense to school and gives the audience and kind of people identify there won't be any ideas in these groups and then the Kindle consolidate those findings and come up with a summary or an action plan out of that workshop that it makes sense as a little child.
I mean, I say,
Oh,
Go ahead. No, you go.
As gonna say no. I think so.
You know, being that we've been
I've been selling a we've been offering a block chain.
Related
Tool for about four years and the amount of the amount of people that in touch with who don't quite understand it or how to apply it or don't.
Don't understand the transition and thinking
I mean this this is mainly what what I find is that they don't understand the transition and thinking between between hierarchies and decentralization
There's sort of this
Transition and thinking of
From hierarchies to holler keys and being able to balance that and finding the right use cases. So I think that
Giving giving people tools to be able to help others navigate
How to do that. I mean, because that's essentially what you're talking about your experience, right.
I think that's, that's really important.
Certainly, see the same thing and health care, but where healthcare is Paul archaic too smart cities.
You know there's there's a lot of connectivity there.
So you know it's it's it's an. It's an interesting problem. And that's something that I've been trying to figure out how to solve is how do you get people to understand this relationship.
Between you know hierarchical thinking and design of systems and the fact that we live in a hierarchy. And if we externalize the
The flow of entropy
For things in the system that we don't take care of you know the winds up coming back into the system in ways we don't intend
So it's
We have this opportunity. That's what one of the things that block chain and
Pushing intelligence to the edge of the network and you know it's it's. These are all subjects that most people have not even considered in business or in city administration. I just
Just did a workshop at the global tech jam, which was part of the NIST
Smart Cities will global smart cities initiative.
And they had
People from all over the world.
Talking about all of these issues.
You know, they already have working groups.
And super groups actually that span. Some of those
Working Group.
They may even have
Some, some experience.
That's both tapping into and I'd love to get these those groups together because that's another huge body of people
Professionals and
educators who have an interest in this space.
And you know, we definitely want to expand the audience in whatever direction as we can. So I'd like to try to do that as well.
Fantastic, given the the the curl realities of time as
The facto timekeeper today as
Martyrs is unable to be clearly heard, so I'm holding the baton. Thank you everyone for that permission.
If anyone else want
They can, they can
You know request. I see. I see what he says yeah
But, but the reality is, we've got 30 minutes to decide exactly what we'd like to propose in one week.
Given the people who are here today on the call and their interest capabilities and likelihood of being able to attend or to find an alternative to attend if their, their presence is needed. So
We had a I think pretty a pretty compelling and live proposal hear from Dr. Moon year who thought we could do some sort of
Gathering on the discussion if they use cases is and challenges of digital transformation looking at human centered design within network constraints and whatnot and sharing a kind of a bit of a mix of of experiences.
And then turn that into
A an open discussion with the audience who could share their own experiences with the idea that we'd have a proper tour, who would write up some sort of summary learning document from this. That seems like a pretty valid.
In a way to structure it, but what do people think, and most importantly, are there enough people on this call, who feel like they would have some use cases to share to make this the right way to go forward over
Going once, going twice going three times.
Okay.
As it seems like no one has resonated with this is something that might be the correct structure for them.
Does anyone else have any alternative ideas of what they would like to work on to present something at the summit or forum or in spite of having interest, perhaps, would we like to, then maybe transition over and defer to dr Munoz vision and maybe revert to the original idea of a
Single presentation probably heavily focused on the great work of smart Dubai. What do people think
I think that's a great idea can time constraint.
How long are the sessions.
At at the forum.
Situational
And disrupting the email while we can discuss the other point
That
The fact that you've already got
Something made is is helpful and if, if we want to
Because it's going to take some time.
To get some more engagement in the group and
To bring in people who have experience. I mean, if we want
To
Find out other experience to add to
The presentation that
You
Just add just give you the details. There is therefore type. So one is a breakout session, which is typically 14 minutes in length.
And if you're proposing a panel discussion in this breakout session. Then again, it's 40 minutes and you need to be ever maximum off one moderator and panelists. The other is a think tank.
Which is a discussion forum with somebody special imitating only 20% of the time with 80% audience interaction.
The third is a workshop which is a facilitated discussion around deployments that team of the workshop will be introduced.
You end up to three additional facilitators will give attendees topics for discussion attendees will then break out into smaller groups to discuss
Or share their experience and talks with one another, culminating with a report out back to the group with a summary of the lessons learned. Next step and best practices, etc.
And the last one is a demo theater where you can showcase your hyper ledger power deputation in enlightening talk format 10 to 15 minutes
Now the workshop, they do. I don't see a time for the workshop, but I believe it should be much longer than the 14 minutes given for the breakout session.
So we have either the think tank discussion forum or the breakout session, which are 40 minutes
40 minutes
Seems to the workshop is more than that. Maybe a couple of hours. I don't know.
Okay.
Here's
A call here feels like there's a reasonable odds that they would actually attend the forum.
I will
Be attending
Hello, Marcus.
Anyone else
Okay, well, working from the fact that we have
Two or three attendees on being
Who's got a very comprehensive proposal Marcus and I may attend depending on whether it would be useful for any of the things the screw proposes, but only in that case.
Marcus. Do you
Have any interest.
To be a presenter, and I apologize if you put this in the in the survey, but I
Wouldn't mind feeding in about whether you have any interest about
Presenting are shaping or if you aim to go shrewdly to participate and learn
would not mind them being a presenter will putting in one or two conflict post status. Anyways, I would not mind.
Perhaps then you'd like to speak a bit more about
Your background or context or what you might be thinking, start throwing that around with the group a bit
Organization, by the way, sorry.
It's for eyes.
Would you do
What, what does your organization do
Software.
Development consultancy company.
Therefore I'm
From the
vendor side.
And
From
The same city well conference will be
Sure.
And yeah, we'll have a technical talk presenting this
Channel.
online shop, we've made.
And will also probably present this management information system.
We are about
To implement
Or a government agency, but there are still waiting on confirmation, whether the project will actually be happening. And also, if
Customers comfortable presenting his
Case on in this forum.
But other than that, I'm if it's if if if any have to the group or to the presenter.
Happily work, but the group to make something happen.
Great. I don't know how many people are using the zoom group chat, but martyrs actively participating in the chat.
She will be attending and she would be happy to help shape and other
Submission
If there are people and if if we pick a topic and she's saying, for example, privacy analysis of government use cases or
Something so if if
What Martha is suggesting privacy in their lessons of government use gift.
giving her the expertise, also, that is an excellent panel discussion also. So if we want to have a panel discussion, maybe visa. Is that ok with one is we're talking about blockchain use cases. And the second part could be a bad
Maybe Marta can more rated and we're talking about privacy and you know DDP issues and even when it comes to block chain.
I can add to that milestone. This
That was a popular subject.
I did a workshop on block chain and smart cities, which was followed by data and privacy and almost no one moved and there was more people who are you know people added to the room.
When they got to the data and privacy.
Session. So it's definitely a particular subject.
Terrific. What is also excited and says, I'm for doing it.
Seems like you. I think that's we have a topic, then I guess we should be talking about. We should be talking about you know paneled a panel of privacy in government use cases previously analysis government use cases.
The panel requires at least one female panelists. So if martyr. Does the owners, we feel that we can fill that requirement. Also, and we have reviewed may have a few of the people from the group.
Great.
In the interest of time, perhaps
We
Looking at our timing here. I know Dr. Moody, or you need to present and update us
As well as we need to figure out who would like to collaborate together on the privacy analysis of government use case topic which marvelously was suggested by Marta.
Shall we have a show of hands of who would like to continue this discussion offline.
And then move on to the next phase. What you people think
At least identify who would our panelists who would like to be a panelist on that, if this is a battle.
And then we can start writing it up because we only have this week to submit
Indeed,
Also calling out that Marcus has already nominated a you you Parliament MEP as a potential panel participant.
Alright, well, I think that, at minimum, it sounds like Dr Monier you're interested, Marcus you're interested Marta is interested
I'd be happy to contribute.
To some of the thinking on this.
Does anybody else want to be
Part of this, the formation of the submission
Irrespective of your attendance.
Going once, going twice. Alright, well, we'll continue the discussion, then I think through chat and email, perhaps a secondary call if that's nice.
Email would be best. I think to get
Going and it looks like we have our core
Group here who would like
To the page.
So with no more ado, please. Let's move on to the rest of our very interesting adjust
My one question is on the
On the breakout session. What, what is that up, or do you guys suggest some changes to that. Secondly,
If I am presenting for the new co presenter and who will be the problem, we can have up to one couple mentors.
Do you feel that it would be helpful to have a co presenter, because I know that is an optional thing.
Yet
Another perspective or somebody who can choose
If I may, I think that you are really truly the expert on smart Dubai and
Again could easily fill the time
In more
With what you have learned
Is that, like, there's not other efforts going on and other places. They're just not here yet so
This is our first time.
What I do is, for now, I just went submit it and that if we will change later on. And if it
sounds excellent.
Munoz there anything else that you would like to delve into as part of your
Time.
Is anything on this little we have to
Start writing up so I guess in the next few days related. I had a presentation for the
Which was a pretty long one, but don't have much time. And this was on the policy framework, but I guess I'll just
Since we have shocked time and just take five minutes and we came out very high level overview of what policy considerations should there be
When we are talking about blockchain and public sector.
Proceed with that.
Figured out how to share my slide that
There's a little button that says share screen perhaps
My block chain. Excellent.
Okay, so basically, when we started the journey we quickly realized that we need to have retained policies, when it comes to block chain and some of those policies could be
really specific to our environment, but a lot of them had to do with when we are going to deploy a block chain at enterprise level or at a government level. So what should we be looking at
The. So last year we can have were developed was with IBM for developed a very high level policy framework.
And now, actually, we're working with the WC to come up with detailed policies, you know, we're deep dive and come up with very detailed policies, some of those policies are specific to our environment. But a lot of these policy.
Will be common to whichever whichever government entity is going ahead.
And deploying block chain across so that maybe have a lot of crystal, the group.
But we realized that probably they will be see pillars for this policy framework. One is at. I want the foundational capabilities. What should the platform be which enabling services. So those would be very specific to one environment. The other is around governance and technology.
So much will areas would be like ownership and membership of these networks.
Architecture and standards, which would be specific to a particular network.
security, privacy and risk management for these
often use cases.
The fifth one is against specific to a particular environment, which is funding and accounting
The six days. Very interesting, which is dispute resolutions and which becomes very interesting it once you go cross jurisdiction.
THE 70s communication and adoption policies. And finally, last but not least, the global reach federal international networks cross border use cases. So we have to come up with any detail policies, at least in these areas.
And, you know, large enterprise why you don't a city or a government wide block strategy.
So some of the examples.
When we talk about organization design and
Your oneness and that we have, of course, the ownership and the membership polishing.
Ownership of the business processes that implementation maintenance of the network, network maintaining the network registries.
The other is member onboarding off boarding policies and the roles and responsibilities of the members network.
On the architected and standards ways of course every environment will have to come up with blockchain technology blueprint, we had a very detailed blockchain technology blueprint that implemented so adherence to that the standards have to come up
Plus the other related standards.
You know, digital identity plays a key role in most of these use cases. So what are the underlying standards there.
On the security, privacy and risk management. We have to have became policies on ensuring criticism of the transactions with in case of blockchain. We may even have to look at
how you're going to handle transferable so
A lot of jurisdictions would not have address that.
Then the principles of inspection or the thing
Managed violations and risk management principles which will be dependent. So blocks in network.
Was under the funding and account policies cross sector, you know, players from the inspectors. How would you find an account for these
Networks.
And finally have the dispute resolution.
Guidelines to legal recourse.
In case a smart contracts. How do you handle. We're just legal recourse comes in so detailed policies have to come in and that area.
On the organization designed the communication interruption side of course approach for communicating
Key capabilities needed in the public sector for blockchain adoption rate to work on that.
Great at and applause for migrating all use cases to block chain. And now we have a very clear objective of
Pretty much training every applicable transaction on blockchain by 2020 so we have to have a very aggressive approach towards that.
Then completion certificate in approaches and principal across
One network versus multiple networks and then integration, this becomes probably the biggest and the most interesting
Question.
In a government situation one network work versus multiple networks.
Depending on in my set myself also depending on which side of the bed I wake up in the morning I, are you one way or the other.
Says marriage and the marriage and of course some of the extra come up with detail for the season that we have seen videos example we have seen
Players like yourself and others. We are multiple networks and reward seems examples of, let's say, let's try and being me as a, you know, somebody has built up one large network.
On there. So that's a very interesting point, then the foundational capabilities of your platform. And then it makes services around it.
They would be centralized platform versus entity specific approaches.
And finally on the global reach side expanding these use cases to international participants, they would be a lot of cross border use cases, especially when you bring in create finance and you created building in remittance global travel
These kind of use cases are very cross water and even for us. I mean, a lot of times, especially by as many unique
Place in one perspective that majority of the people here are expatriates so even if I have to bring in a document and a test that document that
other jurisdictions, get involved and pretty much every aspect of a citizen journey in the way
So this is even this
High level policy framework event about
Defining detail policies. Any idea.
What is the objective overview. What are the guiding principles.
That we are going to address so
We don't have that much time left in the cause.
Let me take, let's say one policies so we can they find let's say ownership and membership. So, we define the objective that
Defined approach and which entity even define the network's
One approach that we took us probably instead of one network what in multiple networks.
Which are more sectoral networks and every sector has a sector head which becomes a nodal entity.
And then
You define principles on which actually entity will own the network defined principles on defining members for the network enrollment approach for this networks.
Then the policy and overview
How you do behind the facts of
What the network be private permission network what regulation will be quiet.
So they're kind of on the old recites and then the define detail guiding principles, who would the North northern entity be who would be the owner entities and what kind of member entities and be there.
And then the key metrics on
On various policy principles.
around that. So this was, this is who are the so we can have said, Okay, let's take the ownership part. So in our first approach. What we did was we divided
Everything into like 11 or 12 sectors all citizen journeys and identified an anchor entity for each sector and started anything sector networks, but I have seen certain metrics and
Going beyond this and
Building larger networks, also. So what we'll do that.
And
We then have more ownership and membership.
So I guess we're out of time, so I'm just kind of wanted to share that this is how we went ahead with developing a very high level.
Framework for these policies and my understanding is that every other jurisdiction every of the city or country government that is looking at
The moment level, you know, across the board, locked in implementation would have to come up with such a deep end.
Not only a framework but detail policies.
And my objective was to kind of learn from the forum if others have come up or implemented for this year. So we can do some knowledge that is
Thank you document.
70 slide.
slide deck, but I don't think you're trying to present
Might be a very good idea so that we can
Learn at a
reasonable pace.
As obviously scratching.
The surface of an enormous amount
All right. Shall we consider this
User, as it were.
What may be coming in an upcoming soon presentation.
Here, I guess, because we only have 10 minutes left, so I couldn't have gone through the slide deck. So let's do this in
How we are doing the next sessions and what
They've been one of the following questions. If I have 30 minutes or something, making them.
That seems like a good way and rational way forward.
All right, I will start to just bring us together.
Well, it seems like no one has set like that. They're not interested. I think this is
Quite interesting
To see a good interested so
I'm sure
I put a link into the chat for that this
Program, the global city teams challenge and they've got
50 or 80 cities.
Largely in the US, but some around the world.
In Asia, Japan, Korea,
And I've and I've been in touch. You know, in doing the research for that other workshop I did.
With some other folks.
In other cities. So, I mean, I'm happy to in the background. I've sent you a connection request that
Near but
If you want to find some more, you know,
Examples to pull in, there's an opportunity there. So,
That's great, Nate.
Would you then like to participate in the development
Of the proposal for the summit, as you might have some great ideas of who else to bring in
I can participate at that level. I know that I won't be able to be there, but I can certainly help him and connecting some dots and things like that so
Terrific.
All right, well, noting the time with everyone's leave and as, like, I suppose organizer coordinator today. So thank you.
This has been actually a fairly action packed and productive session in which we've determined that there will be two submissions. One is already quite complete Sparky by the other one is going to be on privacy and there will be a subset, who will organize this week.
And put something together that I'm sure we'll be extremely interesting and productive. We also got a high level overview of
What is happening on policy and smart Dubai and look forward to having a more proper focus session around that when we have the ability that time aside. But I think for the moment.
We're going well, but also Bobby will be, I presume, helping to share the surveys, it seems that folks are interested, Justin, seeing the raw data.
With redacted names which I suppose is fine for the moment, but once we've worked through our immediate priorities to get out our submissions, the global summit, we can really start to dig into order people's interest areas and start building out presumably
Further agendas for the group so
That's over and out from my perspective, if anyone else.
Like to chime in. Before we go along. This would be a great time today.
You may
Want to get one thing
Really like to see if we can
Try to identify some interesting clause for the fuel. She gonna think that we can work together on
Lots of ideas. If the phone can kind of identifying something weird
Well, noted
Shall we say goodbye for the moment.
Until
By everyone and looking forward to
Collaborate. Thank you so much.
Hey everybody this is Melissa here.
Just waiting for folks to get on and we'll get going here shortly. Thanks for thanks for joining us this morning or afternoon or evening, wherever you are.
For joining us this morning.
So right at nine o'clock. We're going to give folks a couple more minutes.
I'm going to share my screen so that folks can see the antitrust policy or start with here and then I just reminder for folks that if they're not speaking to please meet their phones.
Just to help us with background noise and the agenda is in the chat box as well. If anyone wants to review that before we get going here.
Yes, I can't ask while we're waiting, I think I see some new folks on the line. Does anyone have any initial, initial questions before we get going.
Tony little online. Hey, Tony. How's it going,
Good, how are you okay
Just waiting for my little one to arrive here. Any, any day now.
I was just gonna say how are things going on. You got to be good and close
Yeah, yeah, the engines revenue here at you contractions yesterday and we're, we're getting close. So we're excited here.
All right, fingers crossed. Best of luck.
Thank you, sir.
All right, well, why don't we get going. Just to start out of want to read this. Just as a reminder for folks. So the antitrust policy for the Linux Foundation.
The meetings involve participation by industry competitors and it is the intention of the Linux Foundation to conduct all of these activities in accordance with applicable antitrust and competition was
It is therefore extremely important that attendees adhere to meeting agendas and be aware of and not participate in any activities that are prohibited under applicable US Federal
Or foreign and to trust in competition loss.
Examples of types of action that are prohibited at Linux Foundation meetings and in connection with Linux Foundation activities are described in the Linux Foundation antitrust policy available at
This URL. I'll put it in the chat box as well. If you have any questions about these matters, please contact your company council or if you are a member of the Linux Foundation, feel free to contact Andrew
Grove of the firm of guests mirror up to grow LP, which provides legal counsel to the Linux Foundation.
That's
The URL here as just for for folks that are our new online really quick.
Summary. So this is the the patient sub group meeting for the hyper ledger healthcare working group.
And we this is our fourth meeting. So getting getting this off the ground and we've been really having
Some pretty good conversations just around particular use cases that we are interested in and kind of defining a problem statement that we're we're looking to tackle. Tackle as a group. Ultimately the goal is for us to basically start with conversations around use cases and
And requirements and build something eventually that will help contribute you moving development in the block chain space for it is particularly around healthcare and the patient centered
Perspective and for folks that are
More and have been involved from the beginning. Does anyone have anything to add, as far as context setting for for this up group.
Great.
And then we do so for today really what we're going to want to be focusing on is the conversations that we've had so far is really defining this
This problem statement regarding connecting data longitudinally across silos in the healthcare sector with the patient at the center of that that effort and
What we are hoping to do today is just to review the business case that we have so far and and start discussing a little bit more power going to start teasing out from that larger problem statement, the specific use cases that we can then
Take a break down and more into requirements and dig a little bit deeper in I think we have Tony on the line, Tony seen online as well. He was
On the call last week and we had some conversation about kind of workflows that maybe we want to explore and so I'll turn it over to Tony to kind of put his ideas out there and we can use that as kind of a starting point for that that conversation.
And then, of course, we'll just wrap up and talk about actually made his next steps. Any questions on that.
So I do see some new folks on the call. And I just like to open up the floor. If anyone would like to introduce themselves and let us know kind of what your interest is in the group and what
It's a mighty quiet group this morning.
Everybody still trying to recover from July 4
I'LL SAY HI, THIS IS JOHN with University of California Davis and
Thanks for letting me join the group we're developing some courses.
In this area, and
I appreciate the the interaction. So that's my background.
Actually did my first year of college and UC Davis, so
Cool.
That's amazing. I love that.
That location that University. Welcome. Thank you.
Hi Kate founder
And I'm from excellent health and thank you for putting this together, enjoying the conversation.
Welcome T. Can I ask, is there anything in particular that brings you to the group or areas of interest, where you
Actually have been looking at a project with Oracle Enterprise blockchain and just now it's, you know, some some meetings where we're thinking through what might be a pilot or a project, very early on with Oracle
Great, thank you.
Hi this is john Riley and with CNC blatche and advisory I'm in West Palm Beach, Florida.
And I'm on board because I'm working with some hospitals down here that are about to look at doing an executive roundtable on blockchain. I recently spoke at a healthcare conference for them.
And now they're really just getting their feet wet, so being able to share information like this. So what's going on that can benefit them is it's very helpful to me in those conversations
Thank you. JOHN, welcome. Thank you.
Gentlemen, I'm with a company called Black rich technology and my interest is in the cyber security piece of all this, how do you
Definitely a critical one.
And then I don't know.
If people would like to hear some other introductions and we have Tony little rich black who have been part of the group for a while. Would you guys like to give a quick interest as well.
Sure, sure. I can start
That's okay. Go forum, Tony. Thank you, rich, but Tony little here. I'm a physician by training and technologist by trade, I work for optimum, which is part of the United Health group.
Here at optimum. We have been in the process of evaluating and creating a block chain solutions for almost three years.
It's a long process to get to a point in which you can do a proof of value and we were doing that right now with a few other payers. When I say other players. I mean, United Healthcare, and then
Humana multi plan also included in there as Quest Diagnostics which is technically a provider, but we're doing a pilot on
How to manage or better manage provider data and the healthcare space amongst mostly payers, as I mentioned,
And we hope to have a white paper out on it by the end of the year, we do have production level data running
And are very excited about not just that use case, of course, but how block chain could potentially create a utility for block or healthcare data.
That can be used by the entire industry. So it's good to be here and and be involved and I really appreciate all the inputs. There's lots of new and exciting things going on here, impossible to keep track of it all. This is one way to to get a little slice of that.
And also add Tony is going to be a dad again very soon.
graduations right
So my name is Rich black so i'm also sort of a Seattle area person. My backgrounds and systems and software engineering
I spent 10 years at Microsoft. Sometime ago transitioned over to do D military and did some work in that space for a while and then probably the past 10 years
Focused our engineering in the healthcare space and then the past few years started looking into applications of black chain in healthcare.
And so at the moment where we've got a small start up that we're working on doing some patient facing work in block chain space for the sake of health care.
We're doing some stuff out on the Olympic Peninsula with a couple of providers. And yeah, this is a great group to work in probably been part of this working group for
About a year or so. Oh, and then Tony and I also managed the Seattle area hyper ledger meetup too, which is great because it we get it nice cross section of hyper ledger folks beyond the healthcare space, particularly
But really, really excited about versus work here. She's doing a great job and trying to get the communities spun up and coordinated and and this is a very exciting time.
Stephen or Angela.
Trying to find the mute button. The Jews.
Stephen
I'm a software engineer. I work with cognitive in San Diego, so just south of Seattle downing and Glenn sunshine.
We are focuses on interoperability standards.
Were very interested in how we can build terminologies and HL seven technologies like fire and expose those through other standard interfaces like smart on fire with blockchain. I think this is use case that we're talking here or will be talking, I hope.
Is going to surface. A lot of the
A lot of the ways that both ph si P i and hipaa will will guide.
Or influence the kinds of technologies that we use and and hopefully we can do this in an interoperable way so that the data can be shared on a wide
Basis, even though maybe the data in the back end is is proprietary
It's still be nice to
Have it surface and
You know,
Some kind of fire resource using SNO med or like or arts
Alarm so that it can it can be used by a wider audience. So
That's our interest here.
we're new to block chain, although we're trying to catch up.
And it's a moving target block chain or hyper ledger one point to just came out then with that things like private data and side DBS and all kinds of very interesting things that actually
Are
Part of our conversation here.
So yeah, looking forward to sharing and learning from everybody here. Thanks so much.
Stephen and since we're pretty small group today to just want to give everyone an opportunity to speak so I co Walid on the on the call will lead to try to introduce yourself.
Courtney, I just joined late. I'm sorry.
I can't hear me.
Yes, I was actually just checking and I see a while lead on the call and wanted to see if they wanted to introduce themselves.
But it looks like maybe they're prefer to see on us.
So I would, Angela. I would love it and we're just doing introductions, since we're pretty small group today and we have some some new folks on the line. Would you like to introduce yourself and just speak a little bit about what brings you to the to the group.
My name is Dr. Until a Courtney and I'm part of the company name, address, to biotech, and we're trying to create a test for cancer, and we're startup launched out of UC Davis and I have a special interest in machine learning.
And of course blockchain is sort of that natural progression to their head and found the project year and it seemed to tie really well with some of the pain point that we are having as a healthcare startup and that is
Getting data to train on
Because running a clinical trial is extremely expensive.
And so if you can find open source data to train algorithm gone. It is so much better. But data is not data, you have to have the right data. And so being able to actually get the data from the patient specifically that you need to obtain the information from
Is really challenging, but this is a perfect use case for blockchain. Try to solve. I
Thank you so much. Angela and we have john Dolan on who is also based out of UC Davis So sounds like you, you have a little Dave is contingent on the line, which is
Hey, Angela.
Would you like to introduce yourself.
Oh, okay. Muslim just sent
A
Chat to everybody.
And the computer science student in Germany and I'm actually in the library and unfortunately can't speak and doing my thesis about blockchain and healthcare.
Very cool. Well, thank you for, for joining and we're very excited to have you, especially in large contingent of sneeze. It's exciting to have folks with
With technical backgrounds that can help drive build and insights into projects like this. So thank you so much for joining and let us know if you have any questions, and
If there's anything in particular that you're looking to get out of the group.
Pamela errors.
This is Jeff Stallman
Please get
Our focus is actually an payments across block chains were expecting.
A plethora of kind of enterprise silos, if you will.
But we don't think that each silo need should have its own currency and we don't think that fiat currencies are a very good way to make payments when you have black chain because you're gonna make instantaneous payments.
If you use a crypto currency and so we're looking to develop tools to facilitate payment across block chains using a single currency, which would in our mind would probably be a stable value currency.
So that we don't have to
Treasures of
major companies wouldn't have to worry about the risk of volatility, it would just be worth $1 or Euro or whatever and
Whatever that crypto currency is we'd be able to allow payments across different silos.
Wonderful. Thank you, Jeff. I appreciate. That's an interesting perspective and definitely something that
needs attention.
It says, so this is this is rich. Hey, Jeff, are you gonna what what are you planning to use. What's your technology stack that you're putting to us, or is it too soon to ask
I it's too soon right now. I mean, one of our
What we have we have a bunch of issues that I don't see current solutions for that were
Either developing ourselves are hoping someone else will develop a week and leverage. I mean, we expect these will all be open source tools because that's I think the appropriate way to do it, but
Right.
There's, I asked. I asked because hyper ledger, the hyper ledger prizes, just in general, tend
Tend to avoid the cryptocurrency space.
And it's always kind of interesting to see how how we're going to find ways to
Integrate going forward because yeah we're big believers that
payment model is going to make make a lot of sense, sooner or later, it's just interesting to see how we're going to do integration.
Using some external source with
With the projects that we have through hyper ledger.
Yeah, I, I just see there's there's a coming train wreck.
Will be there were the solution, you know,
Solution for it so that it doesn't doesn't and even and even the currency, we may end up having to put out our own currency, but as a stable value currency that will be back by assets. It's not like so profit making thing where we're looking for the
You know the value of the currency to soar. That's exactly what we don't want. So
Right. Right. Okay. The
Economics is is to be determined.
Excellent. Thanks. I'm gonna have to say it. Yeah, someone has a say when when
Yeah, I think that I agree 100% there that there's going to be an intersection between
Certainly in the pit and the payer space here. We've been looking very closely at what it would mean to use
A token and a network amongst participants.
As an incentive model for participation also potentially, what would the classical he called payment or settlement. So the interesting
What you come up with. And if there are ways of connecting. Obviously there are a lot of people working on ways in the public space to
Trade tokens lower cost.
And there are some stable coins out there, some of them, not so
Not so stable.
Not only not so stable, but not so back necessarily backlash.
But
Yeah, the interesting to hear what you come up with
Jacqueline question if you've gotten much buying already on that and that theory of using the tokens.
Are you directing a question when you're directing this is Jeffrey we'd write me
Yeah, I mean, I've got the gentleman that was speaking about using Victor tokens. Keep the tokens as a payment. Yes. Have they started get much by in
Say from an adoption levels. I think that's the challenge of even the educational part of seeing of telling people how it would work is I think the the hump to overcome as well.
Well, I think once once any kind of system gets implemented that supports payment, it will become obvious shortly.
And those payments would be could be facilitated by a crypto currency because you could then use chain code or smart contract, depending on which black chain you're operating on
To have it automated and you know easily recorded you
Save invoicing and, you know, waiting for payments and stuff, you know, slow pace type situations, it would you so much easier to use a cryptocurrency if you use the crypto currency, though, when you create one for paying you know
Providers
Then you have another than you, you need another one to pay you know for your
File so you know your supplies. When you buy stuff from Staples.
And you need another one to pay you know pay for something else that's obviously Hip, hip hop to stockpile multiple crypto is would make no sense.
That we see that there will be a need for a single or if not a single least, you know, maybe a handful of stable value currencies maybe denominated in dollars euros or yen, whatever.
Different ones to fuss, so that you could make payments to to everybody, you know, without having to stockpile a multiplicity of currencies.
No, I agree with you i mean i think it's it's definitely good solution. I think for me the challenge. I mean, even to explain it to some executives at a conference.
They were so just hooked on bitcoin and as soon as you're talking about, hey, you can set it up to where you can pay for services and tokens. That's all they kept focusing on
We're all we have to get into bitcoin and it was that challenge of overcoming that education side of it doesn't necessarily that's just one part of what you could use it for
Yeah, well, I think, I think it to make the case you have to emphasize using a stable value.
Grant.
I agree and and we, I know a lot about stable value currencies and I'm actually quite confident that we can do that because we'll just have a standing offer to buy or sell at $1
For example,
The economics and we'd have to have with us the chance
Have transaction costs because there's gotta be something to support the infrastructure. But even though the volumes of dollars might get large, it's not a very large infrastructure. It just has to be incredibly scalable, because if you figure
That you're doing, let's say 10,000 transactions, a day on this on a pair solution and you're doing you know 10,000 transactions, a day, and these are arbitrary numbers on, you know, to pay for your business supplies and you're, you know, all these different
Silos applications, you're gonna have to support the this the sum of all of those as far as
Ours.
Absolutely.
We're gonna be micro payments. So you don't want to have transaction costs that
Make your micro payments double
Exactly. No, I agree with you. I think it's great. I love to hear the progress of that.
All right.
Yeah, and rich. Thank you. You
Just put the
Rocket chat link in the in the chat box here. So this is our mode of communication between
Group members.
Kind of between our meetings so
Really encourage folks to join the rocket chat channel and engage in conversation there. We haven't had a lot of engagement so far with this group, but I think that as we get going. It'll be a great resource for us. So please
Take old
Rich, did you want to add anything there before he moved on.
Yeah, for anyone that hasn't gotten familiar with rocket chat in order to get spun up on that, you have to have a Linux Foundation account, which is a freebie.
So yeah, this is a great conversation that we were just having about cryptocurrency and I'd love to have that recorded somewhere. So that's what
I was thinking, Man, this would be great up on rocket chat so we can have this sort of
indelible and keep the conversation spun
Around this because it's going to be fascinating. Going forward, and it will be a great reference for us as we we use it as a way to look back in reference so
highly encourage everyone to go to a rocket chat. I know some of the folks on the on the list here are already set up on there. So thanks very much for that.
Awesome. Okay, so kind of moving forward. One of the things that came out from last week's meeting and I think
Will will become more of a neat as we move forward is somewhere to be able to build on thoughts and ideas and and kind of move our
Our business case forward as we are constructing this concept and there is a wiki through the Linux Foundation that I've unfortunately I don't have a very technical background. So I found it a bit difficult to engage with. And so as an alternative. I actually created a Github repository.
To kind of continue our conversations between meetings on on the business case. And so I will. I'm sharing the the link in the chat box right now.
I will have to warn you that it's likely that we might need to move this back under the Linux Foundation umbrella and I'm working with, right, who is
As I don't know his title, but he has been helping with kind of the
Coordination and kind of logistics of how to engage with the community for for me in the suburb has been a great resource. So we are having conversations around that. But I didn't want to maybe I can share my screen just very, very quickly here to show this.
To you guys
So this is the the subgroup repo and i think i hope that everybody has access to to edit.
The wiki, wiki is found here and we have links here to the community calendar rocket chat and the meeting recordings and then
To change that text, but over here on this side, this is really where I've started building out our, our business case and our problem statement.
And so this is just, I think, instead of sending out notes after a remeeting which you're kind of just static and then people forget about them and they're not really flexible or iterative. The idea would be that people could come here and and put in ideas and start
A kind of
Working through this together. So I encourage folks to take a look at what we have so far, and also to make edits as they seem appropriate or put an ideas or
However, they
They think would be
Would be best. I would ask that if you do make any edits that there's a footnote option for commenting on the changes that you've made.
Down here. So if you can just do that, that'll help us track kind of changes that are made. And so that's just a logistics a piece that might be. I was hoping it would be helpful for our collaboration, any feedback or
Questions.
This is fresh. Yeah, this looks really good. I'm looking forward to finding a good fit for for capturing some of the conversations that we have and documenting them.
The yeah the Linux Foundation wiki is a little more difficult to work with. So, this, this, I hope, will be the gold standard going forward.
Thanks for touching my taper rich
That's
Gotta submitted that but
We're working together. So on that note, well, I guess, any anybody else on feedback or comments there.
So that looks good. So I just want to interject. So, where you going to do a summary for from last week's meaning because I wasn't not
Yeah, actually, what I did was a kind of put that let me share my screen again because I think it's actually I incorporated at all here. Thank you for for that reminder
Okay, so really what we focused on last week since there were a lot of new folks on on the call was just kind of providing that context that
Provide providing context around just the overall structure of the Linux Foundation. I have related projects the healthcare working group and then the the sub groups, which include this group. There's a peer group that Tony is heavily engaged with and then also sounds like in your
Group will also be
springing up so set context. And then we really kind of work through the problem statement. Once again, thinking about how we connect with the patient in the center and how it connect longitudinal data.
Across the different silos to help them form diagnostics and treatment and what can I think we do. One of the biggest takeaways from last week's meeting was that you know of this like large problem statement.
And thinking about really an individual own health data record that there were kind of chew major use cases to explore and then from there, we could break those down into more I guess I've struck from that even even
More specific questions that we
Did you have a comment.
That was just feedback. Okay. And then those
Those two that were pulled out. We're clinical trials and then sharing data across healthcare entities. So a couple of examples that came up were, you know, if you go to the emergency room. How can an individual brain relevant data with them to that visit and then, you know, in an
In an incident where you're seeing multiple
Providers across your golden in an
Out of network providers, how do you track your
Information there.
So these are and then from, you know, this is kind of a compilation of
Other maybe Stephen, I think we're. These were your ideas, specifically around for each kind of sub use case. And, you know, these are the areas that we want to dig into some improv interoperability Providence data standards data right and flow consent and data.
And
Just kind of thoughts about how we would kind of
user journeys are start mapping those things out.
Just a quick point. I'm sorry. Didn't review the notes. It's not Providence its provenance PR
Two different meetings, very close, but two different meanings. So the source of information. So with my lab was done by third. Oh, so it was a done by
These kinds of things will allow us to
Have the
Thank you.
So yeah, I think that, you know, when you get down to the detail with the devil.
Is that you really kind of looking at how you can apply
Apply
Privacy and
Scalable
Permissions or or different permissions to to data and who holds that data. And so I mean just the very simple example that we talked about where the patient is in
Is in the is in at their at their general practice doctor and the doctor says, well, what you've got you've got this problem, we need to
We need to take a blood sample and do do a panel on it.
And so
The point being here is that the the patient.
Who would be identifiable in the block chain system would provide permission to the doctor to take the blood sample and send it to the laboratory.
And you know we've talked a couple of times about who owns that permission, who owns that data that if we say that the patient knows it, but has given as deferred
Permission to the doctor to own that data until the doctor comes back and gives them back and then provides them with analysis of that data.
Then the doctor will get the signature so digital signature.
Take the blood
And then send it to the lab and the lab and receive the blood sample with an anonymous talking or economic data ownership.
Maybe the patients may be the doctors, probably the patients, or both.
And do the process and then provide the data back to
To the, to the doctor. The interesting thing is, who, where is that data. Is it is it is an inner repository that the doctor than accesses
If it is, is there are the restrictions on that, on that data. Of course, there are because the patient hasn't hasn't made that data public or has only made a public to the doctor.
And then we got into these other cases as well. The doctor then comes back either data goes back to the doctor.
The doctor then provides analysis to other data of the lab results to the patient and at that time the patient becomes full owner
Of that information or record has been entered that the doctor has as as seeing the data and has given that analysis to the patient.
And just sort of working through just even that really small little use case brings up a lot of different things up a lot of issues even on the happy path for essence.
If in the panel we discussed
If the patient.
Had maybe an anomaly. Maybe so. Maybe he bowl in the panel. How would that what we're would how would that, how would that be reporting. I mean, that's got to be reported to the CDC.
Or if the patient had an accident. In the meantime, I was taken to the hospital was unconscious and this data was there and the emergency room needed all the data that they, how are they access all of that data. How does the patient can identify how do we
immutably
Identify the patient in them provide anonymity.
Well, to all data that's associated that wars, the data cap.
If data is like a di calm image.
You know, do we do we keep that data in a central repository kept he kept on the blockchain it's it's way too big.
So what kind of consensus mechanisms we have Mayo Clinic recently did a paper on you know we use now proof of work proof of stake, maybe the consensus mechanism here is proof of interoperability.
These are all kinds of questions that just even this little scenario sort of raises as to how we use blockchain to to control access and and
To share the data.
Seems to me that they're, they're really two fundamental pieces here that need to be worked out before that model will be successful. And I think most of the pilots that have tried to do something like this run into those two really big problems. One is
Identity, making sure that the patient on the other end of the at the user on the app, the death is they say they actually are.
In the second
To we're not out of my head.
But
There are two. That's certainly the fun. That's certainly the first one that the second is wallet key management. Right. So how do you create a convenient experience for managing
Keys. If your ideas to put the patient at the center, then they have to have it a custodian somehow
Of that and and so those are the two things I think that are that are kind of being worked on and are challenging because
It has not convenient than than those use cases kind of fall apart. And that's part of it, just the maturity of the technology, maybe and maybe you can't solve it at the same time, but
Most of the folks that I know who sort of delved into this space end up going to one of those two and try and work on solving them first, just based on my experience.
Yeah, I think, I think we can almost ignore
The master patient index and how we identify the patient. I think some other people will solve that.
I think that it has to be some kind of an immutable.
Identity. Right now, we're working with fingerprints and recognition and please provide you know means to identify yourself through the system.
In a variety of different ways of writing different places and very convenient way. I don't think that the wallet seems to be an abstraction of
who you actually are, and may contain information about different cryptographic keys that you haven't different block chains are different silos.
So that to me is is really the most interesting part is, is the transition of ownership or
The evolution of permissions is the data makes its way just even from the doctor to the lab and the back of the doctrine to the patient.
How how things like code can be used to create a system that that monitors and provides protection.
For that chain of command to be to be transferred as it moves through the system for doing versus if we're talking about clinical trials. If you have, you may not want your blood to be used in clinical trial.
And but you may not even want to know that you have refused to
Provide the permission to access
Your blood because the assumption them would be you had either that you had some some some some data there that that wasn't wasn't wouldn't shouldn't be shared.
So maybe you do have, we have some kind of a substance abuse problem. So, you know, maybe, maybe not even want to surface. The fact that the data existed. These kinds of questions. I think in the ones that are going to be the nuts and bolts of how we shared it
Yeah, I agree. I think we're sorry. Go ahead. No, go ahead.
I was gonna say is, essentially, I agree with you, 100% and that the block chain itself and that
That ledger that were would be shared amongst enough participants has been proven to be reliable and have data. The data security associated with it. Security is high enough that
It would provide trust in a space like health care if you have the right mix of participants.
Again, I think, to unlock that the usefulness of that data is to my point was that these other things need to be figured out before you can get an actual use case that it would would work of an example is I have a friend who is
Doing work and had this concept of longitudinal health record for a big health system in the south and after meeting with their executives and all of the technical folks.
Had to pivot really to working on self sovereign identity and healthcare first simply because it was impossible to implement the use case without that
So they went, you know, that's where he's pivoted to and he's in the process of working on that with them. But then I agree with you completely. It would be really great to see this sort of
Level of consent associated with an ownership and tracking that we don't have today. And I think the blockchain will unlock that I think we're just, you know, still working on the plumbing here and it's all very exciting.
Yeah, and I just had a couple of things and to add from the, the scientists, again, the data side that you know when you're looking at health care data and you're looking to actually use it to to make any sort of
Medicine based model.
You need the complete
Picture, which means that you can't have the ability for someone to say here's my for example lab work.
But don't don't disclose that I have. Well, that, you know, could be really important so far as medicine is concerned and and research and trying to
Unravel and solve a problem because things that you think wouldn't actually make a difference.
Could make a huge difference because these things are all modulating the body so you end up getting a long answer.
Because that that very bit of information was eliminated. So I think if we kind of think back as to why someone would want to withhold that is because they don't want it associated with themselves. Right.
I don't want you to know that I have. Well, if you completely D identify the data.
Then it doesn't matter if all of that is disclosed and now the data is basically staying true to its face this ground truth right which is what's needed when you're training models that the ground truth so
Kind of looking at the parts that are available to us that already exists, it maybe we can put into play. We have zero knowledge proof that you know we can actually have that individual and have them.
Become a hash, but their hash is now a zero knowledge proof has the that they can disclose the data and the information, but you never know who it's coming from that who they truly are never really gets disclose that once their
patient information is de identified and hip. I have a safe harbor 18 points that needs to be hit in order to de identified data once the data is the identify then
It doesn't, you don't have to change the ground truth because the zero knowledge proof basically keeps it from coming back to that individual as being that person, and I think we can
Maybe build around that capability.
Yeah, I think that I was looking at a
Little less clinic centric and little less clinical trial century from the data, maybe what needs to be protected by the individual from there. From there from their
Their, their employer or somebody I think there's a lot of cases where medical clinical data about the individual needs to be protected in non clinical environment, since all
That
In the clinical trials, I probably want to
Have
You know, a longitudinal
Are probably in anything. Yeah.
When you're disclosing it you
Really to be safe and
Secure and data.
You really just want that individual to know that it is you right even though they may not know who you are if you're using it in different contexts outside of your
Patient doctor interactions of what's K, you know, they already know is
That if you have a zero knowledge proofs and you're in the insurance company doesn't know it's you insurance company can't put it together. If you know the identified Twitter' by a safe harbor 18 point
It's hard for them to actually get it back is visual
I think it's one of the challenges with the whole model route self sovereign identity and healthcare, it's, it's a real challenge, but
I mean, you could set you could see where you could set up something where I could have many public keys that might all mean me. And if I'm the one who's
The sovereign owning got identity, then you don't have to store, who I am on the chain you just would have these keys and then I would be the master of who
Belong to me right granted out but the the other challenges and in those instances where it's an emergency and you're lying unconscious
You have to make sure you have to wait a break the glass. Right, so that the provider can actually get at your records and so like
There are many different use cases here that all sort of stem back to how do you make sure that, you know, the patient has identified when they want to be.
And they're identified when they should be, but they have no way of proving that they are who they say they are because they're lying unconscious
And they want to wait and make it so that they can be anonymous. These are the things that are the nuts and bolts. I think of what we need to get to, to make healthcare data use one a block chain or a reference to it.
So one other thing that came up in the meeting last week was such a roof.
I believe it was her name suggested that maybe once we had some of these use cases.
Drawn out a little bit that we
could engage with the identity working group at hyper ledger to see what they're doing, get their feedback and
You know leverage what ever they've been working on in their, their knowledge. So I don't know what people think about that. And I guess before we get there, Richard. Just wanted to make sure we you'd asked about kind of a review of the past meeting.
That give you a sense of kind of what we discussed it. Does anyone have any questions about about that.
Yeah, I think I'm okay with it. Yeah, this is good. Thanks. Yeah.
And so regarding
Kind of engaging the identity group, our thoughts last week where, you know, we need to kind of think through kind of like Stephen laid out, you know, walking through
A workflow, a user journey to kind of build that out and have something a little bit more robust before we engaged folks from from that team such a route that has already contacted Nate about potentially making connections there, but any, any thoughts on that.
But I think at least my understanding of hyper ledger is that the individual would be identified by an MSP I remember service provider.
The MSP is the one that validates that this person is who they say they are and provides them with cryptographic key that they use within the chain to identify themselves.
And this is used to validate the data. This is useful for riders patients and everybody that's in the block chain because this is permission block chain. Right. So I think that the
Point of identifying who is patient
Can to some degree be deferred to the MSP and how the MSP does that job. Once that's done, then the person is de identified or anonymized
As a, as an individual that only the MSP can say, oh, this certificate or this hash belongs to this actual individual it's
Called today.
So by that and I think that if we start at that point, then we can use the identity works the identity groups work to provide that that that login or that association of an individual to a certificate or the creation of the certificate through the MSP and
I mean, Tony. Does that sound like like
Does that make sense to people are my just
Understanding. One of the challenges I see that's well that's beautiful, that the challenge. I see is how is it different than today, I guess you know that
The EMR system creates and medical record number that is associated with a particular silo and and many other silos in the country have any idea what that number means
There's always you're able to tie it back somehow to this station 11th own that identity and ported so that the next health system they run into
They're able to share it, and the doctor can see the records and you we've moved the needle right so i don't i don't know exactly right.
But there's there's so many forks and that logic. I could go a number of different ways. But I think ultimately no use cases as a patient, I would like to have a medical records.
That was easy to carry around on my phone. Somehow that I could transport between health systems throughout the world, whatever it is.
That of getting trouble anywhere. The doctors around me have the right information to treat me as best as they can.
And if we can get there somehow with blockchain at providing a utility can make that happen. And that's what we need to get at night. I'm just not expert enough and all the identity stuff going on to notice before before there yet, but the tools.
To do a quick time check. We've got six minutes left.
Any, any final thoughts, Angela. I know that we've had a little bit of correspondence
This week, and didn't know if you wanted to bring any
Any thoughts to the to the group before we started talking about next steps.
And yeah, I wanted to try if we could clarify what we're building what our in game is so far as are we building something that's going to be open source.
For everyone as in the Linux Foundation that we're working under are we building a fee based model and the end as in the crypto conversation that we just had where
Individuals are and have to pay in order to access the super fenders, you're thinking rebuilding like what, what is our in game bills here, I just wanted to see if we could clarify that a little bit more. And I say that because make the difference.
When you're doing sort of the bill.
And sue you know some of the open source models that you can use, whether you're building something that is paid thing, then you have to pay a license fee that kind of you.
Some of these open source algorithm for people who have is, is it going to be open source itself, you can go ahead and continue to build off that algorithm. So, just wondering
Rich and Tony, I don't know, since you guys have been
Kind of engaged in Hyper ledger.
For longer than
Most people I think here.
Any insights there.
So, so I as far as a paid model. Good. Those are paid product, I'd be a little careful and we may want to double check with
Linux Foundation and how how that might operate. I will say, I've spent some time in in a different working group.
That that it was also sort of open source nonprofit on and this was in the interoperability space and healthcare and it was very hard to try to
Structure any kind of solution that was closed source and got in any way privatized. So I just offhand. My gut would be, I don't know if this will be the white proper working group for a private solution, necessarily. I personally sort of see this as
A great opportunity for a lot of us to get together and strategize on structure and solution I particularly I'm a very visual person. So I look for an architecture.
But I would I would imagine that we could take it pretty far down the road in an open forum and then it's individuals want to sort of take this
Take this private I suspect they could probably do that, but I don't think we would want to do that under the auspices of the Linux Foundation that said we could, you know, Marissa, we could probably check with hyper ledger proper and ask them, you know the the sort of question.
This is a lie. I agree with that. I think if it's open source, we can come up with models that other people can add value to
But if it's not, then we have to stay around forever and keep maintaining it and making sure that it works and add value. And that's a lifetime commitment. I don't know that we need to do that. I think you just need to get it going and then let others add value to
And the most important thing is it's very political. Whatever you come up with this political so if you
Buy not charging a lot of the politics is you can manage it. If you charge you can I don't believe you can.
Not at this point.
Yeah, I agree.
Okay there. I guess we're
We're all in agreement that this is going to be open source, what we're building
And as an action item I can follow up with
With Tracy and Ryan, see if there's any sort of guidance there or insights to bring back to the group.
Okay, can I can I
Will come up with a good analogy.
Might be what for example the da Vinci project is done for fire what they're really doing is looking at particular use cases, figuring out what an implementation might look like writing and implementation guide essentially a tool that others could use to start from then bring it forward.
To the community to see if there are others who want to use it, or could use it the idea of just developing standards on top of the standard blockchain might be a standard, at least in some ways, or their standards being built.
Sort of bad and improve upon that and that particular context, which in this case would be
Putting the patient at the center of their healthcare data.
That's just way my my brain thinks about it.
Yeah.
It would provide that foundation and keep us out of the politics that were referenced earlier and
Condemn be used for whatever purposes, both paid and and continued development in the open source side but it pulls us pulls this team out of that conflict.
And you're in. Did you have one other point
I did. I just wanted to point out to them. I don't know if we have a link to the article that that we were looking at where Britain National Health Service and he is
There. A little bit ahead of us on solving this problem, mostly because they have a centralized health care service, which means they're only dealing with one medical record.
A database where we have you know a multitude of different ones, but they in sort of in the future, which is where they are ahead of us in solving this problem they have chosen to work with private car.
Company that de identified data and they can open source their medical healthcare data and this kind of ties in with
The fact that they have one health care record, if you will, for the entire country.
That you know solutions can be come upon much faster because they can open source it so maybe we can link up to that article that everyone could, you could drop that in. Maybe into the wiki or
In the chat window here.
And then I'll also create like a resources page on the wiki and put it there for for folks to take a look
So,
Good.
steps ahead of them. So maybe if we can kind of look at where they are.
That would kind of help us sort of focusing on where we'll be knowing that we have a multitude of different healthcare records.
In different places where they just have one centralized but they're still moving in the same direction.
My get the group kind of all thinking in the same direction.
So really quick. Our next steps. I know we're a few minutes over. But our next meeting is
Scheduled for the 20th
What are people thinking for for next steps.
Have ideas but wanted to hear from the group of people, are there certain things that people wanted to kind of drive to in the next meeting.
So to Stevens Point that he put in the chat box actually agree with that that you know we need to start kind
Of
Riches, you said kind of abstracting from that broader problem statement and to some of the, the concrete use cases are more detail use cases that can then kind of we can start working in and really thinking through, through the process for so that would
Be where I would like to take the next meeting is kind of where you know I was hoping we get you today.
But I think we had some really good conversation if that works for everybody. That's what we'll plan.
Sounds
Great, thank you guys so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
And
I'll be sending out
An update. Once I get the wiki with the notes and everything so
Thank you.
Have a great weekend.
Bye everyone.